Why Isn't Africa Turning Its Science Into Billion Dollar Companies? with Houda Ghozzi

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast. I've been working in the innovation space for approximately a decade now. We consider deep tech startup as a startup that is building a product or a service that is based on a science that would require to be intellectually protected. How much time are we going to spend to get this technology out of a lab?

[00:00:25] There you need a lot of work with experts that are going to assess if the technology is feasible and at what point of time can we get it out of a lab? I think that's an important one. Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential. You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:52] Welcome to another episode of the Unlocking Africa podcast where we explore the ideas, innovations and strategies that are unlocking Africa's economic potential. When people talk about Africa's technology ecosystem, the conversation is usually dominated by fintech, e-commerce and software. But another innovation economy is developing beneath the surface.

[00:01:18] Across Africa, researchers, scientists and entrepreneurs are building technologies in healthcare, agriculture, climate, energy and advanced engineering. Brightest mapping of Africa's deep tech ecosystem identified more than 300 active companies that have collectively raised around $3 billion over the past decade.

[00:01:42] Yet, Africa still captures only a tiny fraction of global deep tech investment. So perhaps the challenge isn't whether Africa can produce world-class science. It's whether we can turn the science into world-class companies.

[00:01:58] To discuss this today, we have Houda Ghozzi, founder and CEO of Open Startup, an organization working to bridge African innovation with global opportunity through investment readiness, deep tech, trust border partnerships and ecosystem development. Huda, welcome, welcome, welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast. How are you? I'm great. And thank you, Terser, for this wonderful invitation. Fantastic. Pleasure is all mine.

[00:02:28] As always, I like to start from the beginning. So I was hoping you can give us a brief introduction into who Huda is. So I am a mother of a kid called Aisha. I'm 47 years old. I've been working in the innovation space for approximately a decade now. And before that, I was a professor of strategy. So I did a PhD in research and I come from an academic background. I live in Malta. I'm from Tunisia.

[00:02:57] And yeah, I'm managing building bridges with the world. And I'm very happy to be here. Fantastic. I also gave a brief introduction into open startup. I don't think I gave it enough justice. So maybe you can give us a brief overview of open startup, what it's aiming to achieve on the continent. Open startup is actually an NGO. We work like, I would say, for profit.

[00:03:26] But the spirit is a nonprofit. We started off 10 years ago as a bunch of people passionate about students and universities and how to build strong innovation coming from academia, making sure basically that universities don't just remain places that are isolated in our societies. We started that way.

[00:04:16] We started to do a lot of competition at the level of the world. We did. And then we went to Morocco, did the same, Senegal. And in the last, I would say, five years, thanks to many partners, including the German government, we said, let's go further and let's really get startups to be investment ready. So given all the efforts that we were putting there, we said disseminating entrepreneurial culture is great, but let's do more.

[00:04:41] So now we focus on precedence seed and we take really startups from, say, 200K to their first million. And our very big next chapter is going to be dedicated to specifically science, tech and deep tech. So helping science move out of the lab to build innovation that matters for our continent. That's, I think, what we've been doing. In the meantime, we support governments.

[00:05:10] We support also policies. Whenever we think we can pave the way so that entrepreneurs can do better, we are there to support. You mentioned a future focus on science, research, deep tech. We know that Africa has talented scientists, researchers, entrepreneurs who are tackling some of the continent's biggest problems.

[00:05:32] Yet, when we think about global deep tech companies, very few African names come to mind. Why do you think that is? That's a great question. I think that first, I partially agree with the perception because I mean, I think that today, if we look at InstaDeep,

[00:05:55] which is one of the first Tunisian unicorns that helped build the vaccine against COVID using AI that's been acquired by InstaDeep, there are some nice success stories in Africa that demonstrate the capacity. Yet, it is true that as compared to the rest of the world, specifically the US, China and other parts of Europe, Germany, France, Africa did not yet really seize the importance of it.

[00:06:24] So, in terms of GDP investment in R&D, for instance, we remain three times lower than the rest of the world in average. So, I think there is a real need to understand that it is important, that it is doable, and that we can build models that are adapted to our context in Africa. So, I personally think that there is one, that belief, that is lacking. And then second, once the belief is there, talent alone is definitely not enough.

[00:06:53] So, it's about thinking of a model that is different from the one that we see in the Western world, where Africa can be part of this conversation and system. There will be more need for, indeed, investment in R&D, but also having science that is more oriented towards translation and having scientists from the beginning wonder if there is a way for them to commercialize what they're building. So, there's a change in the culture mindset.

[00:07:23] And then once we're there and we'll have more and more people willing to do it, then the ways to do it are not that complicated. So, technology transfer offices should be reinforced in research centers and universities. We can imagine more and more collaboration internationally, more collaboration with the corporates. So, it's a whole work, I think, that is right now in progress in the continent. So, it's a momentum.

[00:07:50] And I do think that many measures will help us move into this deep tech adventure in the next 10 years, I think. As you mentioned, there are African companies that are making global impact. Whilst doing my research, I actually came across a report by Brighter that identified more than 300 active deep tech startups across Africa, collectively raising around $3 billion over the last decade.

[00:08:19] Do you think this proves that Africa's deep tech ecosystem is maybe further along than most investors realize? Investors are kind of right. You need to see more to have an appetite. So, in a way, like 300 is a small number. I mean, if you look at, like, probably Y Combinator, there are more startups there. Those are the numbers of 2024.

[00:08:49] There's probably another 100 startup early stage in the continent. But I think that, yes, there is. The investors don't really see it yet. And I would say we don't necessarily have the right type of investors yet. Because investors that we see in Africa today are essentially investors in the fintech space, insurtech space. We see less investors really dedicated to the deep tech ecosystem.

[00:09:18] So, I think the question here is, when are we going to really disseminate more and more to have a pipeline that will not only get the other investors to look at deep tech, but also the investors that come from the classical transactions that start saying maybe we can do also some investment in the deep tech space. So, yeah, I mean, here is still the question of, like, the chicken or the egg.

[00:09:47] My answer here would be more that we need a pipeline. Investors will show up once the pipeline demonstrates a bigger number of high potential ventures. I've actually realized we've been talking about deep tech and there are probably people listening who haven't got a clue what we're talking about. Maybe if you can give us just a top line overview of what actually is deep tech, what qualifies a company as deep tech?

[00:10:14] So, I'll take one definition, which is the one we work with, which is the definition of the MIT university. University that is one of the champions of science tech, deep tech in the continent. We consider deep tech startup as a startup that is building a product or a service that is based on a science that is out of the lab,

[00:10:38] that would require a patent, research and development, that would require to be intellectually protected, and that usually needs more patient capital because we call them dolphins. They spend more time under the water before really emerging. And so they usually need more patient capital. So those are the characteristics of what we consider today being a deep tech venture. Fantastic.

[00:11:05] Why would you say this distinction matters when we're thinking about how these businesses should be built and also financed? So those are generally solutions that require research and development, so time and budget, and that require intellectual property and a way to protect the invention and science that's being developed. I think that's the main distinction right now.

[00:11:36] The other, I think, interesting element when we talk about deep tech for having seen many of them in the last decade is the way the entrepreneurs build is different, because in this case, you often have a scientist that's not necessarily a business person that needs to enter the arena of the business space

[00:11:55] and needs to probably build teams that hold the business people and find ways to organize and divide the ownership in a different way. So there are some particularities that make these businesses different, require more time, more attention to the way the governance is organized, to the way the invention is protected.

[00:12:21] And oftentimes I would say those are often businesses also that address critical strategic matters for country, including defense, access to water, health. So there are also businesses where oftentimes there is some regulation that is important or some protection from the country. So there are some specificities that make these businesses a bit different and require some additional attention, let's say.

[00:12:50] So if we take this distinction and the additional context that you've just given and bring it back to the African context, where does the journey from scientific research to a commercially viable company typically break down on the continent? Yes. On the continent right now, I would say, surprisingly, the very, very first step,

[00:13:17] which is I'm a scientist and I started to build, to innovate in a different field. I start doing science and I start publishing. The percentage of scientists that decide to really go forward and think of the commercialization, looking at what the TRL, which is the index that takes us from one to progressing generally, I think, to 13 or 14.

[00:13:43] And the TRL basically is that index that allows us to see where we stand from the lab up to the commercialization to the market. Those that progress in the TRL takes time. And I think that in Africa, we sometimes don't even think of taking this science to the market. So I think that's super important to put it there.

[00:14:06] If you look at the percentage of scientists who think today in Africa that their science can actually lead to a solution that a market can buy, you'd be surprised how that percentage is low. I would even say in some countries, and I'll talk about the French-speaking countries, there's even a culture that comes from, I think, this thing about academia and money shouldn't kind of mix up,

[00:14:34] where the moment you start talking about commercialization, you almost can offend the scientists and the lab and the way they're received by their peers. So I think in terms of where we stand in Africa, that first part already needs to be completely changed. We need to foster more and more grids there and possibilities for scientists to think outside of the simple publication.

[00:15:03] And I think that in Africa, because we don't have that, what happens is that scientists publish. And once they publish, because they only see their career as a scientist, progress becoming basically a more advanced scientist. So I say we often stop there.

[00:15:23] And for the lucky, courageous ones who really have that grit and decide that they can do it, then the journey is very long. It takes them a lot of time to realize that they are entrepreneurs and that they belong to a category of people that have their ecosystem and community. And for those who go to that step, oftentimes what we can see is more startups that are stuck in the early pre-seed to seed,

[00:15:53] sometimes going to series A, but you are right. But startups that go to series B and C in that space in Africa are extremely rare. And they're often going to be the ones who automatically go overseas in order to grow. And that's, I think, when you mentioned we don't see enough ventures. Indeed, we don't see enough ventures in their series B and C. That's a fact.

[00:16:19] You've highlighted why so many potentially viable or valuable intellectual property remains inside universities rather than becoming products and companies. So if I'm an African researcher or scientist who has developed something genuinely innovative, what would you say needs to happen between the discovery and having a customer who's willing to pay for it?

[00:16:47] So I think that the best way to answer this question is to probably look at some models of ecosystems that are functional there. And I think that the very first thing that I personally have noticed in those types of ecosystems is, first of all, the research centers are very much connected to the rest of the university that is open to the industry.

[00:17:08] And those are very early on ecosystems where universities basically open up to the industry, have competitions, have like, look at the MIT 100K price annually. They have, if you look at the ecosystem of Columbia University, MIT, the number of initiatives surrounding scientists to really get them out of their trajectories is tremendous.

[00:17:32] And then you really need to have grants in the beginning, research grants that allow for the scientists to have some time to get this company advanced to its TRL 4567. And then you need not only grants, but capital, like smart capital, people who did it, scientists who did it, who are going to be advisors.

[00:17:57] Look at the sandbox at MIT, which is taking all of the alumni that pick scientists they want a company and startups they want a company because they've done it several times and exited several times. So there is the vision of something possible. And then you need money that is basically university research investors. You look at South Africa, for instance, you have UTF to name them, which is like a specialized fund that looks at research out of the lab,

[00:18:27] that understands technology, that understands how to, what is the trajectory, what is necessary for the ventures to thrive. And you need a lot of dialogue with companies because deep tech, while we talk about IPOs and the other technologies in the deep tech space, oftentimes the trajectory is an acquisition, a collaboration with a company, with governments, solutions that are going to be acquired by a total, by a shell,

[00:18:57] by those types of companies who have the money to be able to acquire those solutions. So it's a whole ecosystem that needs to be built. Those are the Western models. I'm not sure to what extent Africa can copy them, but Africa can at least try to take some of them that are doable with the resources that we have.

[00:19:21] And I think that Africa's trajectory needs to be built in collaboration with the world because we cannot do it alone. And I think that when we look at deep tech, it's almost tech for good. So it's almost a responsibility of societies today to invest in science and deep tech. I hope that helps. Yes, it does.

[00:19:43] As you mentioned, MIT and different academic institutions and the journey is fundamentally different for a deep tech company. So would you say we're making a mistake by trying to support deep tech founders using accelerators and venture capital models originally designed for, say, software startups?

[00:20:05] I think that this is like when you don't have money to go to school, having your grandma tell you a story is always a way to educate you. Yes. So I still think anything that can bring support to an entrepreneur is good. I think that we tried in the beginning to accelerate startups in our classical programs that were not specific for deep tech. We failed, I have to admit, at that time.

[00:20:32] And the reason was I think we were not sufficiently paying attention to the persona. We were not paying attention to the limitations in terms of their intellectual property and the way that, for instance, makes it very difficult to build teams because teams here require even more trust and understanding of how the persona of a scientist functions.

[00:20:53] It also requires lots of knowledge about the IP part, where to protect it, how to protect it, which countries you should be protecting it. You're going to be surprised as an accelerator. Like you're going to bring VCs and very few of them will invest in deep tech because they're going to tell you we don't understand these products. This is not the type of solution.

[00:21:18] So it's really important, even for a classical accelerator, to add here an understanding of the investor. Who are they? Where are they? And also looking at corporate venture capital, because oftentimes the Sanofis of this world, for instance, are the ones who are going to invest in deep tech, the Phillips Foundation of the world.

[00:21:41] So here, when building this chapter, we quickly understood that the classical VCs, very few of them would look at our ventures.

[00:21:51] So with that in mind, and as you mentioned, the additional technical expertise or understanding that is required, how would you go about assessing whether a research-led company has a genuine potential when the technology may still be years away from generating revenue? It's a very good question. I think there is a big part of it, which is assessing the technology readiness.

[00:22:18] So how much time are we going to spend to get this technology out of a lab? I think there you need a lot of work with experts that are going to assess if the technology is feasible and at what point of time can we get it out of a lab? I think that's an important one. The second part is the scientists and the intellectual property.

[00:22:43] Is the scientists, is the scientist someone who can do it, who has an appetite, who has the openness? And is the scientist able, for instance, if it's not going to be him, to bring people that will take forward this translation while keeping himself or herself in the lab doing science, as we can see in many, many countries?

[00:23:07] So lots of time that we spent really looking at the openness of the scientists and the grit and the capacity to eventually be the CTO or the chief scientist officer and not the CEO. And then, of course, we would look at how much time it would take to commercialize. How much funding do we need for that? And finally, in our case, we spend a lot of time thinking of what do we understand and what don't we understand? There are, for now, verticals that we don't understand.

[00:23:36] And by not understand, we don't have the experts. We don't have the ecosystem. And so we avoid supporting some startups where we consider being ignorant. So that's, I think, a very important one, which is what do we know, which is more now the health space, the climate space specific elements there. But we avoid, for instance, for now, cybersecurity, where we consider that we're not specialists. Yeah, I think that's overall how we do it.

[00:24:05] And we never look at, we never do this assessment alone. We always assess with a tech and science person and an industry person that will help us understand how much time and what would be the journey and how complex is this journey for us to get this solution out there. I guess, as we've discussed, this space is perceived as quite niche and technical.

[00:24:30] It requires technical expertise and understanding for investors, which then presents an additional barrier. And then I guess that barrier is further compounded when you're operating in Africa. And I read that Africa captures less than 1% of global deep tech investments. Yes. Why would you say that gap is so large? I think that we're just assessing Africa at the beginning, at a nascent ecosystem. I think it is a nascent ecosystem.

[00:25:00] It is Africa, if you think of the tech space and innovation. I'm not saying innovation in Africa has always been there. But like this real hype of startups and this momentum in many countries today is not as advanced as other countries. I think Africa had other priorities. It's recovering from, unfortunately, a history that hasn't always been easy for the continent.

[00:25:27] And I think we often talk about the development of Africa, while we should be also talking about the recovering of Africa that needs some time. So the priorities on the continent have been a bit different. It's been about AIDS and helping humanitarian and humanitarian issues. I think there are many elements there. There's an element of, of course, resources.

[00:25:53] To what extent do government allow themselves to invest in R&D? Very low again. So that's an important one. And I also think that there is, again, this mentality of deep tech is not for Africa. Deep tech is not for poor countries. So, I mean, and I think that if we do this exercise interviewing randomly people and you'd say deep tech, they would say U.S., they would say Israel, they would say U.K., France, but not Africa.

[00:26:23] So and that is important because if you don't have the belief that it's doable, then you don't have soldiers that push, that push policies, that push accelerators, that push investors. And then ultimately governments who, at the end of the day, also respond to the priorities that come from the ground as well. And I think that for the government today, it's almost, it's almost, you know, that realistic investment.

[00:26:50] We are not sure to what extent we believe that it's doable in Africa. And I think we have to put it out there and admit it. Most of us, whether it's like Europe, the Western world in general, and Africans, we don't necessarily believe in it. So I think that that's one of the first limitations that I see on top of the government's investing, the talents coming to the country and so on and so forth.

[00:27:16] So would you say the bigger problem is that there isn't enough capital or that we just don't have enough investors who understand how to evaluate scientific risk in Africa? There isn't enough use cases that demonstrate that it's doable for investors to come on board. That's one. And there isn't enough ecosystem structuring for scientists to have an easier pathway.

[00:27:46] And I wouldn't say there isn't enough capital because let's remember capital is international and capital moves wherever there are successful stories. Africa wouldn't have difficulties attracting capital from the US if it's demonstrating that it has a potential the same way Singapore did it. So again, who would imagine 50 years ago that Singapore is worth the investment that we see today in the deep tech space? So again, for me, it's not a matter.

[00:28:16] It's the capital will come the moment we start seeing more and more stories that are successful, solutions that are actionable, and the capital will follow. The corporates will follow. If you think of all the corporates that work today in Africa and do just simple transactional activities and who have their VC funds, and I'm thinking of L'Oreal, I'm thinking of Total, I'm thinking of all those companies that operate in Africa today transactionally,

[00:28:45] who could build their fund and who don't do it because we are not demonstrating that there is enough to invest in. So keeping on the theme of capital, I know Open Startup is introducing as an openers first, which is a catalytic financing layer providing pre-seed and seed capital to selected ventures.

[00:29:09] What would you say this early capital will unlock that traditional investors are unwilling or unable to fund? That is exactly the type of capital that you would have in a competition in MIT. So it's that 20, 30, 40, 50K ticket that scientists in more wealthy ecosystems are able to unlock just to get their TRL advance,

[00:29:37] just to be able to have a small little revenue for the scientists, just something to pay their rent and have a bit of food. So, I mean, again, when we're looking, I would love if we were not obliged to build this investment layer. I mean, building this investment layer is almost unfortunately a demonstration of failure here of our ecosystem,

[00:30:00] because 20, 30, 40 and 50K tickets for a scientist that's building a solution against tuberculosis or to fight cancer, or those are like basic fundamentals that should be provided usually by grants inside universities. So I think that that's exactly where we're trying to position. We're trying to look at what does the scientists that have a solution that matters,

[00:30:27] that is translatable, that seems to have a market, what do they need? Usually they're going to need two years of work with us up until the moment they start selling. And that's for a solution that's not too sophisticated scientifically. In the biotech space, it's different. It requires much more funding. So we see this SPV and the small investment layer more as those small fundings that usually exist

[00:30:56] in the academic ecosystems. And that could help them hold 12 months almost up until the moment a bigger ticket is offered to them. And I'll tell you, like this number of 20 to 50K was while looking at our data, in average, a startup in the deep tech space or a startup in general would need two to three K per month

[00:31:22] just to pay some salaries and have some like overhead and keep going and have the time to go get bigger grants that are sometimes non-dilutive forms for very high research costs. So that's why we've built that, we positioned in that specific space. And we wanted to make sure that those safe notes are really not too dilutive so that they can pay back and offer this to the next generation of entrepreneurs.

[00:31:52] So you have to understand that this small investment layer, the objective is a kind of promise of an entrepreneur to the next generation because there's no carry. It's really just something that's there for the entrepreneurs to benefit for a year up until the moment they're able to pay back and offer this to the next generation. It could be said that capital is only useful if companies eventually have markets.

[00:32:20] I know you've argued that research-led founders should be able to build from Africa and compete globally. So what does build from Africa from a deep tech context actually mean? I think to answer this one, I'll take some examples. And I'll talk about one of the ventures that we're very close to called Remedy in Egypt run by a woman scientist that I salute, Salma Tamam, that has demonstrated that through her research,

[00:32:48] so she basically was able to make sure that we are able to manufacture diagnosis tools in Africa in a context where energy is not stable. So through this science that she has been able to develop, she now has a first plant in Egypt and she is developing diagnosis tools for COVID, diabetes, Mpox, Ebola today.

[00:33:18] I know she's working on a solution there. And not only has she demonstrated that there is a market in Egypt, but she's also demonstrating that there is a market in Kenya, that there is a market in Ghana. Now she's looking at South Africa. And I would even say that she has today just got a certification in Germany because we often tend to forget that the world in general needs solutions that are more frugal.

[00:33:46] And so we often think that the African solutions are, oh, solutions that are built frugally just for Africa. In reality, Africa has the possibility to demonstrate that it has the capacity to build solutions for less resourceful ecosystems. And that exists worldwide. From the US to the UK to France, we see unfortunately more and more economic crisis,

[00:34:13] more and more needs for solutions that look like the ones we are building here on the continent. I think of also a solution in South Africa, which is transforming the way we produce vaccines on the continent at a lower cost. And again, those are solutions where the German government is working with them as well, because they do see an interest in eventually replicating these models.

[00:34:39] So I think it's important to break some stereotypes about the frugality of our solutions. Our solutions are solutions that are made for ecosystems where we need to be more mindful of the costs. And I think that unfortunately, the world right now sees many countries outside of Africa that need our types of solutions and science.

[00:35:02] So if we look at solutions and how agriculture, healthcare and clean tech are already prominent areas of African deep tech. So would you say Africa's biggest structural challenges could actually become a competitive advantage for entrepreneurs who are developing this type of technology? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think that it's very important to say it loudly.

[00:35:28] Again, we cannot build what we cannot see and imagine and believe in. And I think that the very first thing, and I'm happy to do this podcast, because if this voice can help and say, hey, Africa not only will have to build deep tech. I mean, it is not a luxury. Africa needs to build deep tech. Countries that are more fragile need deep tech because they cannot continue to be recipient of technologies

[00:35:57] that are too extensive for them. And I think that the good news is, and we see it. I mean, I was in Switzerland a couple of days ago looking at the University of Bern and the collaboration. They're building solutions all together with Africans. And they're looking at ways to get these solutions back in European countries. So this is not me thinking.

[00:36:22] We see it today at play in Switzerland, with Germany, with the U.S. So I do think that Africa should believe that it has the talent, as you said, but there are also ways to do it that are not going to be a copy paste of what is happening in the U.S. and Europe, but it will be done in collaboration with a win-win.

[00:36:45] And again, also keeping in mind that Africa has an incredible access to databases, genetics, that an understanding of populations that could help global health in general. And we tend to underestimate that asset that Africa can really use to have a seat in a table that it could help design differently. I guess if those type of companies can be built on the continent,

[00:37:11] the economic implications go far beyond just startup valuations. So I guess I'm just thinking out loud. Could deep tech ultimately create more, say, defensible economic value for African countries? Because we're not just consuming technology, but owning intellectual property and also the scientific innovation.

[00:37:34] So I'll answer here that the deep tech battle is a macro battle for progress of societies in Africa. When, I mean, I personally am extremely passionate about this topic because I come from that development and macro interest. I think that nothing more than deep tech can help develop countries, increase the GDP.

[00:38:04] And here I'll take, and I don't want to commit a mistake there. So there's a study that CDC just published, I think it was in June, that showed that 1% additional investment in the GDP in health in Africa increases, creates a trillion dollars and creates 5 million highly skilled jobs.

[00:38:32] So deep tech is a serious matter. It is a matter that governments should be looking at because it really creates an incredible added value for the whole ecosystem. It creates highly paid positions. It creates contracts with companies that create value. It creates solutions that are less expensive. It reduces the need to import technologies that are very expensive. So actually, it's an incredible positive creator.

[00:39:02] When we talk about deep tech companies, we're talking about the economy as a whole. So if Africa successfully commercialized, say, more of the research already being produced on the continent, what would you say that means for jobs, productivity and the kind of industries African economies are able to participate in? So I think, first of all, given the scarcity of our resources, we will need to make choices.

[00:39:31] We will not be able to delude. First of all, I think that's very important. Like countries should be investing in three, four main industries where they consider that they have a competitive advantage. And I'll take the case of Morocco that has OCP. So probably like focus on agri-tech countries that have access to like sometimes for some countries, it's going to be blue tech. Other countries are very good in biotech.

[00:40:01] If you take the case of South Africa, for instance, Tunisia as well. So we will see, depending on the decisions that also governments will make, predominant verticals, whether it's health or energy. We could see more and more engineers working here. We don't know exactly how AI is going to impact us.

[00:40:27] Probably for Africa, AI is a tremendous opportunity to do research at a much lower cost and at a higher speed. So we would see and hope to see more and more jobs here in the AI space and AI and engineering space.

[00:40:47] And finally, I think that we would need to see more and more jobs of investors, investment today. Who are the corporate investors? If you look at like the landscape of corporates that have a fund, it's a joke. Like rarely nobody invests. Imagine all the opportunities of companies that would use a bit of their profit to invest in deep tech because it's a way to externalize R&D.

[00:41:19] So I would say it will depend again on the verticals that the countries will sign up for, but it will require technology. It would require more and more scientists and scientists that are able to work with other disciplines, including engineers, sorry, business developers. We often forget that one. Like deep tech requires even more business and finance people because that's exactly where the inventors lack skills.

[00:41:47] And I guess that brings me on to my next question in terms of maybe the partnerships or corporate involvement in African deep tech. It remains relatively limited. So what role do you believe large African companies can play as customers, partners, researchers, rather than simply waiting until the technology is already proven?

[00:42:12] Like if you look at a bit how the U.S. did it, the U.S. it was looking at the Silicon Valley or whatever, DARPA, and the government put skin in the game. I'm not sure to what extent this is going to happen that way in Africa. And then there are advantages, fiscal advantages, tax advantages when you invest in science because it's the way it has to be.

[00:42:39] Like if you're a company and you decide to sponsor a deep tech accelerator, that should be deducted from your tax, for instance. So I would say it's corporates, but also some support. The government putting their hand on the shoulders of the corporates to help them invest with them.

[00:43:00] So I think that it could be a whole spectrum going from simple sponsoring of some research to sponsoring of accelerators to investing in other funds to building their own funds. So I think it's kind of there are different ways for corporates. And I think that's what we should be telling them, that it's not necessarily zero or one.

[00:43:30] You're not necessarily obliged to have a 13, 50 million fund. You can start with a 2 million fund on your balance sheet and government should be taking some risks there, matching funding, for instance, and offering benefits whenever companies decide to offer a bit of funding in that space.

[00:43:53] I think that makes sense because, again, these are solutions that are there to improve humanity, societies, health, access to environments that are less polluted, which are at the end also under the responsibility of our governments. Fantastic. So if we look ahead, look into the future, imagine we're having this conversation 10 years from now and Africa has successfully, say, closed much of this commercialization gap.

[00:44:21] What would the ecosystem look like for you in terms of it being successful? It's a wonderful question. I love it. So first of all, it will happen. And that is a promise. So let's give ourselves a meeting in 10 years. Yeah, definitely.

[00:44:40] And it will happen because we don't have a choice and because we have a lot of people that are super passionate and hard workers and that will definitely ally to make this happen. It will look like scientists that are proudly doing science, but extremely passionate about trying to make money and through solutions that they take to the market.

[00:45:06] So and that's why, like in everything that we're doing now, we want to make sure that thousands of those scientists are in that game. And then whenever they want to do it and they will look around them and they will easily see peers that made it, that become their mentors. And many of them that will invest because they're angel investors and they will say, go ahead.

[00:45:31] Like a Kareem Kier with InstaDeep, who today in Tunisia is one of the biggest investors in some of the deep tech startups. And then they would look at, they would go to see their transfer office that has a very good and efficient technology officer that would write the patent in a heartbeat using their AI crowd.

[00:45:53] And then they would look at like, they would need much less time to go get people that are their trusted funders. And then they would go and talk to corporates that already have innovation centers, innovation departments that know exactly what we're talking about. And that will just question their interest, economic interest in doing so. And I hope I'll be able to tell this story to my grandchildren by then. She definitely will. So, so last question.

[00:46:24] Quote of the week. As people, we often have quotes, philosophies, proverbs, affirmations that keep us going when times are challenging or when times are good. Is there one that has stayed with you throughout your journey? Yes, it's one that is in French. So then I'll translate it. And it says, Which is, just take the pain of every day. Don't try to project yourself into too much pain. Just do it today.

[00:46:53] Take that pain and move on to the next one and just do it step by step. It's a way for me to keep going because like when I close my eyes, I'm like there's so much to do. And I remember, did you do the best you could do today? Yes. Tomorrow we'll see. So just let's keep going. Stop thinking of how difficult it is. Do not listen to people who tell you it is not doable. Just keep your grit. Cope with the pain. Be resilient. And take it one step at a time. Fantastic.

[00:47:22] A perfect way or fitting way to end today's conversation. So Huda, that has been a fascinating and very technical conversation. It's definitely tested my knowledge and I've enjoyed it. I think what's really stood out is that Africa's deep tech challenge isn't simply about producing more scientific research because the research already exists. The entrepreneurs exist.

[00:47:45] I think the bigger challenge is building the infrastructure that turns the scientific breakthrough into commercially viable companies. And it's been great to discuss that with you today. Same on my side. And thank you for this invitation, Therse. I hope to hear from you soon. Definitely. We will keep in touch and speak soon. Bye bye. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast.

[00:48:11] If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share or tell a friend about it. You can also rate, review us in Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast. Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.