Why Ethiopia? How Dodai Is Building Affordable, High-Speed Electric Motorcycles in Ethiopia with Yuma Sasaki

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast.

[00:00:04] My background is a mix of Africa and mobility. I have work experience in Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana and Djibouti.

[00:00:14] I had to convince professional VC investors why they should invest in our project in Ethiopia.

[00:00:23] One thing I noticed in Ethiopia that is extremely similar to Japan is first impression is everything.

[00:00:31] But still battery can usable, so we want to repurpose to sell at a very lower price at the off-grid area in Ethiopia.

[00:00:40] Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential.

[00:00:46] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:54] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential.

[00:01:06] Today we have Yuma Sasaki who is CEO and founder of Dodai, an e-mobility firm that is driving the development of EVs in East Africa

[00:01:16] and are currently assembling and selling electrical motorcycles in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

[00:01:23] Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast. Yuma, how are you?

[00:01:27] Thank you very much, Gah. Great to be here.

[00:01:29] Before we get into the conversation, I was hoping you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about Yuma Sasaki.

[00:01:38] My name is Yuma. I'm originally from Japan.

[00:01:41] Currently, I'm based in Ethiopia, Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia.

[00:01:46] My background is kind of a mix of Africa and mobility.

[00:01:52] I have a work experience in West Africa as well, Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana and Djibouti in East Africa.

[00:02:00] So it's a mix of West and East and also Anglophone and Francophone as well.

[00:02:06] And also I was leading Uber in Japan and another startup of e-scooter.

[00:02:15] It's like if it's in London, it's the same as a lime and barred.

[00:02:21] Yeah, like standing scooter.

[00:02:23] Yeah.

[00:02:24] And after that, I came to Ethiopia, Djibouti and Ethiopia three years ago.

[00:02:30] And then since then, I'm here.

[00:02:32] And we are now leading the e-mobility startup in Ethiopia.

[00:02:37] Recently, we announced a partnership actually with the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Ethiopia government

[00:02:46] as the very first startup in the history of Ethiopia.

[00:02:50] You're originally from Japan.

[00:02:52] As you mentioned, you have a mixed background experience within different African markets.

[00:02:57] But I was wondering what led you to founding Dodai in Ethiopia?

[00:03:04] What was that journey like?

[00:03:05] Yeah, it's kind of complicated.

[00:03:08] But basically, the main reason we started in Ethiopia is for three reasons.

[00:03:14] One is big market, because I care about both the business potential and also impact, right?

[00:03:23] So if it's small market, when you make it after a lot of ups and downs, the return,

[00:03:31] even if you make it, return will be small from the business point of view.

[00:03:36] And also impact-wise, if simply the market size is small, the impact that you can do,

[00:03:42] you can make is relatively smaller.

[00:03:45] So I focus on the big markets like Nigeria, Congo, DRC, and Ethiopia.

[00:03:52] So I focus on Ethiopia, the second most populous country with 130 million people.

[00:04:00] So that's one reason.

[00:04:01] Two, in a way, it's a difficult market.

[00:04:04] A lot of challenge, bureaucracy, which comes with often little competition, very little competition.

[00:04:12] That also relates to the business and impact.

[00:04:16] If, let's say, Kenya or Nairobi, to me, is the other side.

[00:04:21] It's very easy to start business, but most difficult market to win because all the big players are there.

[00:04:29] Ethiopia is kind of opposite.

[00:04:31] It's very difficult to even start business and then survive by yourself.

[00:04:37] It's very hard.

[00:04:38] But when you get through it, you're the only one who is standing.

[00:04:43] So very little competition.

[00:04:45] And that means that business-wise, retirement is big.

[00:04:49] And also impact-wise, you make an impact without you wouldn't happen otherwise, right?

[00:04:56] So, in a way, difficult market or very little competition is the second reason.

[00:05:02] And then the third, I just visited different countries and I like, in general, the culture and the people of Ethiopia.

[00:05:09] And that's very important.

[00:05:11] I wouldn't tell you which country, but there's countries that I don't really like.

[00:05:16] And then it's kind of important.

[00:05:18] No, it's important because as a foreigner, as an expat, you start some business, right?

[00:05:27] Starting business in your country is already tough.

[00:05:30] And then you do it in the country that you're not from.

[00:05:34] So, and you have to far away from your food, your family, friends, everything, right?

[00:05:41] So, unless you really like the people and then the country, it's very easy for you to give up after one or two years.

[00:05:49] Some people give up in a couple of months, right?

[00:05:52] So, those are the three reasons.

[00:05:54] Big market, very little competition as a result of a difficulty.

[00:06:00] And then the people and in culture that I like.

[00:06:04] Those are the three reasons that I chose Ethiopia to start with.

[00:06:07] You've given us three great reasons why you chose Ethiopia.

[00:06:12] And also mentioned that Ethiopia is a difficult market to start and sustain a business in.

[00:06:18] So, what were some of the initial challenges you faced when you launched a business in Ethiopia?

[00:06:24] Oh, so many challenges.

[00:06:27] Let me give you two examples.

[00:06:30] One is process, bureaucracy.

[00:06:35] Obviously, the country wants foreign investors to come.

[00:06:40] But in reality, and then they won't.

[00:06:43] But in reality, in terms of the process to invest money, you need to get the investment license, which is not easy to get.

[00:06:50] And then after you get, you need a business license to start the business, another license, which is not easy to get.

[00:06:58] And after that, you need to get different permits depending on your business.

[00:07:03] In our case, it's manufacturing.

[00:07:06] We assemble electric motorbikes.

[00:07:09] So, we need to get another permits from transport ministry just to start, right?

[00:07:14] And then so, there are different permits and process that we have to go through.

[00:07:20] And then it's not written down in one place.

[00:07:23] So, only you can learn only when you face the problem and then someone tells you, oh, you don't have that, then you cannot continue.

[00:07:31] So, that's one difficult part.

[00:07:33] And then two, it's kind of related.

[00:07:35] But as a startup, you need a funding, external funding, especially for startups.

[00:07:41] You need money from VC, international VC.

[00:07:45] So, since Ethiopia has relatively, I would say, negative perception as a destination of investment from foreign investors' point of view, right?

[00:08:00] Nigeria and Kenya are always popular, right?

[00:08:05] Yes.

[00:08:05] Ethiopia is the opposite.

[00:08:07] So, I had to convince investors because otherwise I didn't have money.

[00:08:13] So, I had to convince professional VC investors why they should invest in our project in Ethiopia instead of opportunity in India or Indonesia, Nairobi, Vietnam, Cote d'Ivoire, whatever.

[00:08:29] So, these two things were the toughest thing in the beginning to start.

[00:08:34] Thank you for sharing that.

[00:08:36] Prior to coming to Ethiopia, you held a senior role at Uber in Japan.

[00:08:42] Were there specific lessons from your time at Uber that you found valuable or applied to overcome some of these challenges that you faced in Ethiopia?

[00:08:51] Definitely.

[00:08:52] So, Uber and another company, it's called Loop.

[00:08:56] Again, it's a standing e-scooter company.

[00:08:58] When you do mobility with a new technology or new way of mobility.

[00:09:06] You know, Uber, you know, it was new that time.

[00:09:09] Not new anymore.

[00:09:10] But that time, the concept was new.

[00:09:14] And then standing e-scooter was new five years ago, right?

[00:09:18] Including London.

[00:09:20] When you come with a new product, even if you believe that will be good for people.

[00:09:25] And then even if it gets popular by certain people, you have to deal with basically authority, the regulations and regulators.

[00:09:37] And then that's critical if you are in the country where government is relatively strong, relatively powerful, and relatively conservative.

[00:09:49] Which is the case of Japan.

[00:09:51] Yes.

[00:09:52] So, Uber, I learned in a very hard way, we basically failed.

[00:09:57] We are like, we thought that it's like Silicon Valley.

[00:10:00] We don't care about the law.

[00:10:02] We just do it because it's good for people.

[00:10:04] And then we received a letter from transport minister, which we didn't care.

[00:10:08] And at the end, it's kind of shut down.

[00:10:11] Oh, wow.

[00:10:12] And when it was shut down, even though a lot of people wanted the service of Uber, at the end, if the government says no, and then they have a power and authority, and if they didn't like us and didn't trust us, at the end, the mission is not going to be achieved.

[00:10:30] Even if the intention is good, and even if technology is great, and even if it works outside the market.

[00:10:38] At that time, already, it was popular in most of West countries, Western countries.

[00:10:46] So, yeah, I learned that to achieve the mission related to mobility with a new technology, it's critical to assess and have the right strategy to how to, let's say, collaborate or deal with or educate the authority.

[00:11:06] That's what I learned.

[00:11:07] And after that loop, we did very, very carefully, and I would say diplomatically and collaboratively with the government.

[00:11:15] So, yeah, it went very, very well.

[00:11:18] And in three years, from literally scratch, in three years, it got $300 million valuation.

[00:11:25] So, yeah, I would say the only difference is the way that we interacted with the regulators.

[00:11:36] Fight and then don't care versus make effort to get buy-in and then make extra effort to let them understand why this will be beneficial to the public.

[00:11:48] So, that's something that I learned and then make sure that they're not going to be beneficial to the public.

[00:12:18] How Japanese and Ethiopian regulators interact with, say, startups or businesses?

[00:12:26] Yeah, very similar at high level.

[00:12:29] And I think I have the right to say because I lived in London, U.S., study in France.

[00:12:36] I lived in Geneva and in Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Singapore and Vietnam, and I grew up in Japan.

[00:12:43] So, I think I have a good sample to say that it's very similar.

[00:12:48] Yes.

[00:12:49] So, first of all, very, okay, let me say in a nice way, very cautious.

[00:12:54] Yes.

[00:12:55] Right?

[00:12:56] Cautious step.

[00:12:57] If it might work, it might be great, it might be not great, then you will not allow us to do.

[00:13:04] That's the typical attitude of the regulators in Japan.

[00:13:11] And I see some similarity in Ethiopia as well.

[00:13:16] Interesting.

[00:13:16] Interesting.

[00:13:17] Earlier on, you mentioned about when you come with a new product, knowing how to deal with regulators,

[00:13:25] and obviously the regulators can be cautious.

[00:13:29] Is this the same with customers?

[00:13:31] How receptive have Ethiopian consumers been to the electrical vehicle market or what you're trying to introduce?

[00:13:40] In general, relatively, yes.

[00:13:42] Of course, public is less cautious than the government, right?

[00:13:48] Both Japan and Ethiopia.

[00:13:51] But yeah, relatively speaking, yes, very cautious.

[00:13:56] And it's related to that.

[00:13:59] But one thing I noticed in Ethiopia that is extremely similar to Japan is first impression is everything.

[00:14:08] If you have a bad impression in the first time, and then it's very difficult to change that impression, and it's spread.

[00:14:17] So regaining the trust is extremely difficult.

[00:14:23] So even if it doesn't make sense economically, it's better to start in the right way, in the first.

[00:14:30] So what does it mean?

[00:14:33] In our case, we decided because of regulations and many reasons, US dollars, forex issues, many reasons,

[00:14:44] we were not allowed to import spare parts, for example.

[00:14:49] Because our license in Ethiopia allows us to import raw materials, assemble and then sell.

[00:14:58] And then spare parts you don't assemble, right?

[00:15:01] Because that's spare parts.

[00:15:02] So from the government point of view, it's a finished goods.

[00:15:06] It's not raw materials.

[00:15:07] And we don't have the license for that.

[00:15:10] So we are not allowed to import and then sell spare parts.

[00:15:15] That's the reality.

[00:15:16] So what can we do from the customer side?

[00:15:21] They don't care about the license or whatever, right?

[00:15:24] If you have an issue with your electric motorbike, electric motorcycle, you need spare parts.

[00:15:31] And we are not allowed to sell.

[00:15:33] So the only thing we can do is we donate.

[00:15:36] Then it's not a business, right?

[00:15:37] We, of course, nobody says that you can't donate.

[00:15:42] So, but it's not sustainable, but we decide to do that for first one year.

[00:15:47] We just import and then we are not allowed to sell.

[00:15:50] Of course, there are some other businesses selling illegally, but we don't want to do that.

[00:15:55] So we import.

[00:15:57] We literally give for free when they come to our workshop.

[00:16:02] And as a result, now when we bring new products, people trust us.

[00:16:10] Oh, this company, even if we, first of all, they trust our products, electric motorbikes quality based on the experience.

[00:16:18] But on top of that, even if they have an issue, we will give spare parts or at least spare parts are available.

[00:16:27] We earn that trust.

[00:16:28] And then good or bad, first impression matter means if you have a bad first impression, you know, it will drag.

[00:16:36] But at the same time, if you have a great first impression later, in reality, even if you are not the best anymore,

[00:16:45] still that impression will remain to a certain extent, to a certain period of time, which we can take advantage of.

[00:16:54] Right.

[00:16:54] So, yeah, first impression matters.

[00:16:58] And then people are very cautious and want to double check with the assessment by other people around you before you just buy and try.

[00:17:10] That's not the attitude.

[00:17:11] And then that's very similar in Japan, Ethiopia.

[00:17:15] As you've emphasized, first impression is everything.

[00:17:18] So before you make the first impression, how are you driving awareness in Ethiopia about the EV markets or what you do?

[00:17:28] That's actually a great question.

[00:17:30] Very simple.

[00:17:32] Now the team finally agree with me while they didn't agree with me in the beginning when I said this strategy.

[00:17:40] Strategy is very simple.

[00:17:42] People were not familiar with the electric motorbikes at all.

[00:17:48] And even if you try to communicate analogically, it's very difficult unless they see it.

[00:17:55] So we need to make them see it.

[00:17:58] How?

[00:17:59] By making sure 500 bikes on the street.

[00:18:02] How?

[00:18:03] We need to sell.

[00:18:04] Of course, we give 500 bikes as a donation is another way.

[00:18:08] But we can't afford that.

[00:18:10] So we sell 500 bikes without margin.

[00:18:15] We probably could sell 200 or 300 bikes with a good margin for the same period of time.

[00:18:25] But I prefer losing money and then selling without the margin for first 500 bikes.

[00:18:32] Because if there's 500 bikes on the street, everybody see, let's say, three to five times in Addis Ababa our bikes.

[00:18:41] Like literally everybody.

[00:18:42] And that's how we should create brand awareness and then awareness on electric motorbikes itself.

[00:18:52] And then we reached 500 last month.

[00:18:55] So now we were successful.

[00:18:59] Literally everywhere we go, people know us.

[00:19:02] And from now, next phase, we will aim reaching breakeven point within 12 months.

[00:19:11] So I have to redirect our team's mindset.

[00:19:16] Because in the beginning, they thought that it's crazy to sell something without the margin.

[00:19:22] Right?

[00:19:23] And I said, no, no, it's totally okay.

[00:19:25] Because the top priority is brand awareness, not making money.

[00:19:29] Yes.

[00:19:30] And now they have that mindset.

[00:19:31] But we want to drop that mindset going forward.

[00:19:36] Because finally, we are done over some level of brand awareness.

[00:19:41] Now we need to start thinking about breakeven or making profits for the next 12 months.

[00:19:46] So yeah, I will redirect.

[00:19:49] And I'm in the process of doing that to the team.

[00:19:53] Now going forward, we care about the gross margin.

[00:19:56] Meaning we will basically increase the price to put to 20% gross margin.

[00:20:01] And yeah, that's how we do.

[00:20:06] So going back to the theme of first impression, and I guess customer perception or satisfaction.

[00:20:12] Can you describe the technology behind your electric motorcycles?

[00:20:18] You know, particularly around, say, battery life, performance?

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:23] Yeah.

[00:20:24] If I simplify, there are two kinds of batteries existing in electric motorbikes.

[00:20:30] Lithium battery or lead-acid battery.

[00:20:34] And to simplify, lithium battery better, four times longer lifespan, lighter, better performance, but more expensive.

[00:20:45] Lead-acid battery, heavier, and four times less lifespan, but it's cheaper.

[00:20:54] So if this is also another strategy that we disagree with in the team.

[00:21:01] Okay.

[00:21:01] Anyway, customers don't know.

[00:21:03] Anyway, customer didn't know the difference.

[00:21:06] Because electric motorbike itself is new to the market.

[00:21:10] So all other players except us went to lead-acid so that they can lower the price, right?

[00:21:17] Because cost was cheaper.

[00:21:19] And then I say, no, we will do the same as Tesla.

[00:21:24] We focus on the quality one that we believe that in two or three years is going to be a mainstream.

[00:21:33] Of course, we cannot go to luxury one, right?

[00:21:36] But I'm talking about relatively good quality.

[00:21:41] So I said that it's okay because of the price.

[00:21:45] We couldn't sell enough compared to the case of selling lead-acid battery.

[00:21:52] Because these guys are selling 30%, 40% cheaper price than us.

[00:21:56] Even if we don't put margin.

[00:21:58] They can sell 30%, 40% cheaper and with a margin.

[00:22:02] So that was the dynamic in the beginning.

[00:22:07] But yeah, after six months, 12 months, people started understanding lead-acid battery ones.

[00:22:13] First of all, it's gone very quickly.

[00:22:16] The bike itself, it's gone.

[00:22:17] And also those competitors who decided, okay, this is cheaper, back quality, but cheaper.

[00:22:25] So just import as much as possible and then sell it and, you know, make as much money they can within the short period of time, one to two years, and then leave the country.

[00:22:35] So those guys, of course, don't invest in the team.

[00:22:40] Don't invest in the after-sales service.

[00:22:43] So also customers see clear difference.

[00:22:46] Okay, Dodai, expensive, but good quality bike.

[00:22:50] And always seven days after-sales service is there.

[00:22:54] Spare parts is there.

[00:22:55] It's not cheap, but it's there at least.

[00:22:57] While other ones, okay, after six to 12 months, the bike battery is gone.

[00:23:03] And when it's gone, literally no option but to purchase the bike again.

[00:23:10] But the price is 50% cheaper than Dodai.

[00:23:13] Then which one you want to go?

[00:23:16] That was the option that people understand finally now.

[00:23:20] And more and more people are coming to our side.

[00:23:23] And then that's totally okay.

[00:23:25] It will take one or two more years until everybody says, oh, no, we want to buy this.

[00:23:30] Because we see that in cars, right?

[00:23:34] Yes.

[00:23:35] Toyota.

[00:23:35] Toyota is not the most cheapest car.

[00:23:38] But if you think about the availability of spare parts and then durability of the car, in a way, it's cheaper in the long term.

[00:23:46] Cheapest value-wise.

[00:23:48] But, yeah, imagine that Toyota comes for the first time in Africa.

[00:23:54] And people might say, oh, this is not the cheapest one, random brand.

[00:24:01] So they might be careful.

[00:24:03] But after a couple of years, maybe 10 years, 15 years, they understood.

[00:24:08] And then when we reach that point, we don't have to talk about quality because customers already know, right?

[00:24:15] And then when we reach that point, now it's a matter of our, let's say, strategy or priority.

[00:24:21] How aggressively we want to go.

[00:24:24] People already know that our quality and brand is the best.

[00:24:28] And we still want to invest heavily by losing money to expand.

[00:24:33] Or now it's a time to, let's say, recoup or start harvesting by putting margin.

[00:24:41] That's up to us, right?

[00:24:42] But we have to reach the point that people trust our brand.

[00:24:46] And especially to me, that's critical because I'm not interested in coming to Africa all the way just to make small money and then leave.

[00:24:55] I want to be proud of what we are doing as a team 30, 40 years later when I die.

[00:25:01] Thank you for sharing that.

[00:25:04] I guess you can agree with me that African markets can be extremely price sensitive.

[00:25:10] So have you had to carry out a bit of education with regards to the benefits of choosing higher quality, higher price points than a cheaper alternative?

[00:25:22] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:25:24] So because what we are providing, what we are offering is not the cheapest, then as a result, people who are extremely sensitive about the price anyway will not come to us, right?

[00:25:39] Because whether our bike has a better value or, you know, durable, and then even if they don't know, there's a certain demographics who would go to the cheapest one anyway.

[00:25:52] So first of all, we don't aim at serving these particular demographics anytime soon.

[00:26:02] And then we focus on those who understand the value.

[00:26:09] Once they understand the value, they will find a way to afford our bikes.

[00:26:15] Those are the ones that we are focusing currently and in probably next two to three years.

[00:26:19] For them, one is yes.

[00:26:22] So we didn't put margin, right?

[00:26:26] To lower the price as much as possible.

[00:26:29] And then two, we will make a lot, we are kind of noisy in social media.

[00:26:36] And we are probably one of the best known company or brand in Ethiopia.

[00:26:44] And then, yeah, a lot of, yeah, education for customers about our bike comparing to other bikes by customers, not by us.

[00:26:55] And then our mission is to make e-mobility accessible to everyone in Africa, not cheap.

[00:27:06] To me, accessible, affordable, cheap is slightly different, right?

[00:27:13] Expensive house with mortgage could be accessible, but it's not cheap, right?

[00:27:18] The other way around, it's not necessarily expensive, but there's no loan, no credit, no mortgage.

[00:27:26] You have to pay upfront 100%.

[00:27:28] Could be, you know, not affordable, right?

[00:27:32] So I'm not trying to be cheap.

[00:27:34] I want to provide an option that they can buy, let's say with a credit or installment.

[00:27:41] So for that one, we are working on it.

[00:27:44] We already have two or three options, but it's not the best yet.

[00:27:48] So we are working with different banks, basically financial institutions, banks or microfinances, to provide attractive credit options.

[00:28:01] We are already providing two, three options, but I would say it's not very attractive.

[00:28:06] Still, you have to put 30% deposit and an interest rate is like 20%.

[00:28:14] And so I want to make it like no collateral, 10% or 15% deposit and interest rate like 10%.

[00:28:23] That's what we are trying to do, but we have to start somewhere.

[00:28:27] So that's what we are offering now.

[00:28:29] So credit is the key.

[00:28:31] Yeah.

[00:28:31] So you mentioned that the focus is on accessibility.

[00:28:34] What do you think the impact of accessible vehicles will be on the urban transportation in Addis?

[00:28:44] So two major impacts, one for commuter, one for gig workers, right?

[00:28:51] So one for commuters.

[00:28:53] Commuters right now, 95% of commuters take shared bus.

[00:28:59] It's called van or minibus, different name.

[00:29:02] But basically, I think you understand the van.

[00:29:06] You wait in the long line and then the different van to different destination comes.

[00:29:13] And if there's an available seat and if it's your turn, then you join.

[00:29:18] And then you have to take two or three different buses to reach your school or workplace.

[00:29:26] That's the mode of transport for 95% of people because there's no reliable, affordable public transport like metro or proper bus.

[00:29:39] And another 5%, of course, you can move around with a ride share or your own car, right?

[00:29:47] So when we bring electric motorbikes as accessible option, it's meaningful because certain percent, let's say 20% to 30% of those who are currently using this public shared buses,

[00:30:08] mini buses, because there's no other option.

[00:30:12] They can't afford cars.

[00:30:14] While they are okay to pay three times more to have door-to-door mode of transport, they can have additional option.

[00:30:25] That's meaningful for us, for commuters.

[00:30:28] For delivery, sorry, gig workers' side is very simple.

[00:30:31] Now e-commerce, digital payment, delivery businesses are about to bloom in Ethiopia or Addis Ababa.

[00:30:41] So the key is motorbikes.

[00:30:44] I mean, people will not deliver small things using cars, right?

[00:30:48] So, and then if it's a bicycle or walk, then it's too slow.

[00:30:54] A customer needs to wait too long.

[00:30:55] So, yeah, it should be two-wheelers, motorbike, and government already banned fuel motorbikes.

[00:31:04] So the only option is electric motorbikes.

[00:31:08] So we are making electric motorbikes accessible in Addis Ababa, meaning that we can create 100,000 jobs.

[00:31:18] Those are the two things that we see why making e-motorbikes accessible is important in terms of the impact.

[00:31:29] That sounds great.

[00:31:30] So do you think your solution will reduce or increase traffic congestion issues in major cities like Addis?

[00:31:39] That's a great question.

[00:31:40] And actually, I had that conversation with the head of Transport Bureau a couple of weeks ago.

[00:31:46] And then that's one of the reasons also Ministry of Transport have a concern.

[00:31:51] And then we basically have a different view.

[00:31:54] It depends.

[00:31:55] And then to answer your question is, will it make it better or worse, the traffic?

[00:32:01] It depends on to compare to what, right?

[00:32:05] Compare to the current situation, it's going to be worse.

[00:32:09] Because on top of the current number of cars, additional bikes will be added, right?

[00:32:18] So in a way, compared to now, it's going to be worse.

[00:32:21] But to me, that's very wrong comparison.

[00:32:24] Comparison should be, okay, three years, five years from now, in the case that everybody using electric motorbikes versus everybody use other ways, either buses or cars.

[00:32:37] Which one less traffic?

[00:32:39] And then to me, electric motorbikes.

[00:32:41] Because very simple, one car takes up five to eight electric motorbike space.

[00:32:52] And most of the cars in Addis Ababa, if you look at it, only one or two persons are in the car, right?

[00:33:00] So actually, in terms of the space, and then traffic is about basically space efficiency of the transport.

[00:33:08] So space efficiency wise, electric motorbikes is significantly more efficient than cars.

[00:33:16] So in that sense, if you really care about the traffic, there's no better solution than electric motorbikes.

[00:33:25] Of course, there's other variables, right?

[00:33:28] If you can, even if the cars, the car ownership will grow exponentially, still, if you hypothetically can build the roads, road infrastructure exponentially, then it should be okay.

[00:33:43] But that's not possible.

[00:33:45] Or if you can build efficient metro, like London or Paris or Tokyo, then that's also okay.

[00:33:54] You don't have to go to electric motorbikes.

[00:33:56] But if these two are very limited and constrained, the roads is limited.

[00:34:04] Metro is not available.

[00:34:07] In these particular conditions, the electric motor, there's no other solution than two wheelers to minimize the traffic for the city with a population of about probably now 6, 7 million.

[00:34:25] And in 10, 15 years, it's going to be 10 million.

[00:34:28] So I truly believe that electric motorbike would improve the traffic, not compared to now, but compared to the case where no electric motorbikes are allowed.

[00:34:44] I would agree in terms of there are more positives when it comes to electric motorbikes.

[00:34:51] Outside of the congestion issue, you know, you have reduced fuel emission, reduced fuel costs.

[00:34:58] But I guess long term, there needs to be a long term strategy for us to see the benefits.

[00:35:03] And as part of the long term strategy, obviously requires for you to manufacture the products locally.

[00:35:10] As you have set up a manufacturing facility in Addis.

[00:35:14] So what were some of the challenges or hurdles faced in actually establishing and making the manufacturing facility fully operational?

[00:35:26] I would say three elements.

[00:35:29] One is, again, permit.

[00:35:31] Like, you have to have this permit to do manufacturing.

[00:35:35] Really, like, it's, I was surprised to do manufacturing here.

[00:35:39] You need this permit to have that permit.

[00:35:42] You need to have a rent agreement to have the rent agreement.

[00:35:45] You need to have this permit.

[00:35:47] Right.

[00:35:47] So, like, one is bureaucracy.

[00:35:51] Two is bringing necessary equipment.

[00:35:55] Right.

[00:35:55] A lot of things, let's say, compared to purchase the exact same things in Japan or Ethiopia.

[00:36:03] Very often the price is five to ten times higher if it's available in Ethiopia.

[00:36:09] So, just logistics to bring whatever we need to physical location of the factory is challenging.

[00:36:18] That's a two.

[00:36:19] And then third one is the people, right?

[00:36:21] We, I'm from Japan and our head of manufacturing is, he's Singaporean who were trained at the Yamaha in Japan.

[00:36:32] So, we have a high standard in terms of quality and process and safety and everything.

[00:36:39] When, but we are the minority, right?

[00:36:44] When you have 40 people in the factory and we are two or three, whatever we say that we should do it, like, they feel like, oh, like, ignorant foreigners say something.

[00:36:54] So, we, to set the right expectations and then sharing and aligning on hard no or what standard we should have professionally speaking.

[00:37:07] That will take time and then a lot of back and forth, right?

[00:37:11] So, that was very tough in the beginning, but I'm very proud and confident that we are in the right team standard right now.

[00:37:20] But those three things, yeah.

[00:37:22] As you noted, the people or the talent has been a challenge.

[00:37:26] So, how do you go about training and, I guess, empowering local teams to work efficiently to the standards that you have set?

[00:37:37] Right.

[00:37:38] So, training and empowering are slightly different.

[00:37:41] I would say training, I'm pretty bad, to be honest.

[00:37:45] Not necessarily our company, but myself is bad because I don't like to be trained in the training program, for example.

[00:37:55] I'm more like doing and learning type of the person, right?

[00:37:59] Something I want to learn, language.

[00:38:01] I don't like lecture.

[00:38:03] I want to learn on YouTube.

[00:38:05] If I want to, yeah, build a website, I just want to subscribe, whatever Squarespace or whatever weeks, and you just do it and then learn.

[00:38:18] That's my thing.

[00:38:19] And I'm very bad at reading manual or go to some class.

[00:38:25] As a result, I would say that I wouldn't invest much for training, training.

[00:38:31] And then I really care more about on-the-job learning, yeah, personally.

[00:38:38] But like each manager who's reporting to me, I think they value the importance of training more and then they do a good job.

[00:38:47] But to managers who directly report to me, I don't give any training.

[00:38:54] I don't expect any training.

[00:38:56] I expect them to learn through work.

[00:39:01] Yeah, that's one.

[00:39:02] And empowering side, I would say that I really care.

[00:39:07] And I don't like hierarchy.

[00:39:10] And I want people to think by themselves, make a decision by themselves, and then be responsible for the consequence of that decision, whether it's a good one or a bad one.

[00:39:21] That's my general attitude for everything, including myself.

[00:39:25] So empowering, I would say we are probably one of the best company empowering team members, especially in the society where hierarchy is extremely strict in Ethiopia or such country like Ethiopia.

[00:39:45] Empowering, rather my worry or concern difficulty that I had in the beginning is that people don't want to be empowered.

[00:39:54] Meaning, you know, empowered doesn't mean that you can decide everything, you can say everything without responsibility.

[00:40:03] It always comes with a consequence.

[00:40:07] Okay, you can make a decision, meaning that you have to be responsible for the result, consequence of the decision.

[00:40:13] And then people are in general here in Ethiopia, not familiar or not comfortable with this because society or most of the organization don't work like that.

[00:40:25] You are told what to do by your boss and you do it.

[00:40:30] And then since you are not the one who decided what to do, in a way, you can be irresponsible or you don't have to be responsible for the consequence of what you are doing because you are just told what to do and you do it.

[00:40:45] Right?

[00:40:46] So empowering, we want rather we want to push them to be to not afraid of making mistakes.

[00:40:57] Because if you don't want to be responsible for the consequence, obviously, the main factor is a fear.

[00:41:03] When you make mistakes, how can I take responsibility?

[00:41:07] How people judge me?

[00:41:08] So that part, we spend a lot of effort to make sure that mistakes is okay.

[00:41:16] If you try to hide, I'm not nice.

[00:41:19] Yes.

[00:41:19] But making, like it's not acceptable.

[00:41:24] Ethiopia, labor law is pretty protective.

[00:41:27] So you cannot do that.

[00:41:29] But if it's US and if I have the full power, if you hide, no more, like immediate termination.

[00:41:36] That's how I want.

[00:41:37] Hiding.

[00:41:38] But mistakes is okay.

[00:41:40] I always say, so how can let them know?

[00:41:44] First of all, I'll share my mistakes every day in front of everybody.

[00:41:48] Oh, I made this mistake.

[00:41:49] See, even CEO makes mistakes.

[00:41:51] Oh, I made the same mistake again.

[00:41:54] Don't be like me.

[00:41:56] Use me as a bad example.

[00:41:58] Like these things.

[00:41:59] Then people feel more and more comfortable by making mistakes, by trying and also sharing

[00:42:07] the mistakes, admitting mistakes.

[00:42:10] So we don't have to waste a lot of time.

[00:42:13] Sometimes, yes.

[00:42:14] But in general, we don't have to waste the time to find out, okay, who made a mistake and

[00:42:20] why they made a mistake.

[00:42:21] You know, like these kind of blaming each other.

[00:42:25] We don't do that.

[00:42:26] I agree with this approach.

[00:42:28] The manufacturing facility is obviously one element of your infrastructure.

[00:42:34] Are there plans to broaden the EV infrastructure within Ethiopia?

[00:42:40] You know, with things such as, say, charging stations?

[00:42:44] Yeah, we just announced in collaboration with the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Ethiopia to build

[00:42:52] 400 battery swap stations.

[00:42:56] Basically, charge station for the next three years.

[00:43:01] So we will do that as well.

[00:43:03] And then that comes not only just hardware.

[00:43:06] It comes with the technology of software because we will put people in each station to facilitate

[00:43:15] battery swap.

[00:43:16] So users come with the battery that's almost empty.

[00:43:21] And we are waiting at the station with a 20, 30 fully charged battery and we swap.

[00:43:30] So customers don't have to charge by themselves.

[00:43:33] That's the idea.

[00:43:35] To do that, we will do everything in a software basis as well.

[00:43:40] So we already actually, we developed software spending last 18 months already.

[00:43:47] And then also much more complexity or requirement for the battery technology as well.

[00:43:55] Because inside it should be, for example, I mean, simple ones, GPS should be inside for us to control or knowing where the battery is.

[00:44:05] Because we have to manage battery, right?

[00:44:09] And to do that, we have to have IoT inside, SIM card inside, and need to communicate with our system.

[00:44:19] A lot of another technology that we have to develop or bring by partnering with the right supplier.

[00:44:28] That's what we are preparing right now.

[00:44:31] With that in mind, looking at the future, how do you see the EV markets, specifically the EV infrastructure growing in Ethiopia over the next five years?

[00:44:44] First of all, charging station, which is not really reliable and available in Ethiopia, is going to be everywhere.

[00:44:51] First of all, if you think about five years, that's a must.

[00:44:56] And then that's going to happen.

[00:44:58] And on top of that, in terms of EVs, everything is going to be EV.

[00:45:05] Not just electric motorbikes and cars, but buses or trucks, bicycle, everything is going to be EV.

[00:45:14] And then that makes sense, especially in the case of Ethiopia.

[00:45:18] Because Ethiopia, the electricity is 95% renewable origin.

[00:45:22] It's hydro from the dam.

[00:45:25] And then gas is, gasoline is extremely expensive, even relatively compared to other markets, because it's inland, right?

[00:45:33] So logistics cost to Ethiopia is additional, let's say, compared to Kenya or Djibouti or Egypt.

[00:45:41] So, yeah, it makes sense for everybody to move to EV.

[00:45:49] And also, that's also the interest of the government to push the regulations to promote EVs or banning the fuel gas, gasoline-based vehicles.

[00:46:02] So that's going to happen.

[00:46:06] Where we should do, where we should contribute, and where we should, business-wise, should win.

[00:46:14] We want to be the battery stations platform.

[00:46:18] So you can imagine like gas station.

[00:46:21] In the same way, we want to have the battery swap stations everywhere, like ATM.

[00:46:28] And not just electric for electric motorbikes, but even electric three-wheelers or electric bajaj, it's called in Ethiopia.

[00:46:36] Electric three-wheelers, or in some countries it's called tuk-tuk.

[00:46:40] Electric three-wheelers, electric bicycle, even electric cars in the future can come and then swap the batteries.

[00:46:50] That's what we want to be, because that makes sense, at least in theory, to solve the problem of charging or battery management for average people in the country.

[00:47:06] Thank you for sharing that.

[00:47:07] Looking to the future and closer to home, what do you see as the long-term impact of Dodai on Ethiopia's energy and transportation infrastructure?

[00:47:20] Yeah, so transportation, I already mentioned, adding an option, affordable option,

[00:47:27] to move door-to-door by electric motorbike to those who are using shared buses and spending three to four hours for commuting per day.

[00:47:39] It's going to be one hour, 30 minutes, 30 minutes, right?

[00:47:42] And then the job creation part, delivery drivers, we want to provide electric motorbikes, and then they can reduce the gasoline.

[00:47:55] If they have a fuel motorbike, they can reduce 95% of fuel expense by us bringing electric motorbikes and creating jobs.

[00:48:07] These are the two things especially.

[00:48:12] And then after that, battery, let's say battery is not efficient enough, not powerful enough for mobility like electric motorbike.

[00:48:25] Still, battery can work for the different purposes for power storage, for example.

[00:48:31] It's just not good enough anymore after you charge 1,500 times.

[00:48:38] But still battery can usable.

[00:48:40] So we want to repurpose to sell at a very lower price at the off-grid area in Ethiopia.

[00:48:50] So that the off-grid area, they don't have the means of store electricity, right?

[00:48:57] But they can use this battery to store.

[00:49:02] And then they don't have to wait that grit comes.

[00:49:07] So that's what we see in terms of the contribution in the next two to three years.

[00:49:14] Quote of the week.

[00:49:15] As people, we often have quotes, mantras, proverbs, or affirmations that keep us going when times are challenging or when times are good.

[00:49:23] Do you have one that you can share with us today?

[00:49:27] Yeah, I have one, but it's in Japanese.

[00:49:30] So let me try.

[00:49:31] Perfect.

[00:49:32] You can give us a Japanese and English version.

[00:49:36] Basically, keep the promise that you made and then don't make the promise that you can't keep.

[00:49:42] So I'm very careful in terms of expectation setting.

[00:49:47] And if I promise, it's very Japanese, but if once you promise, no matter what happens, you deliver.

[00:49:55] Yes.

[00:49:55] And the things that you are not sure to deliver, you don't promise to deliver.

[00:50:01] You can promise to make best effort to deliver.

[00:50:05] That's promise that you can control.

[00:50:08] But you can't control to deliver for sure, then you don't make a promise.

[00:50:16] So since I'm very careful on these expectations setting to my team, to investors, to the customers, and then to the government, to our business partners.

[00:50:26] Actually, when it's very tough, it's not like, oh, it's tough.

[00:50:33] Should I give up or no?

[00:50:35] If I promise, I'm just figuring out how to get it done.

[00:50:40] Right?

[00:50:41] And then if my promise is to make our best, I'll just make our best because I haven't committed the results in this case.

[00:50:50] So, yeah, to avoid suffering for something you overpromise, I'm very, in the first place, I'm very careful.

[00:51:00] And yeah, make the promise and keep the promise that you have made and then don't make a promise that you can't keep.

[00:51:07] Fantastic.

[00:51:08] I agree.

[00:51:09] I always believe it's best to underpromise and overdeliver.

[00:51:13] Yeah, exactly.

[00:51:15] Brilliant.

[00:51:16] So that's the end of today's conversation.

[00:51:18] Thank you very much.

[00:51:20] Yuma, thank you for joining us today and sharing your very inspiring story.

[00:51:25] One of many challenges, but also many huge successes along the way.

[00:51:31] And it looks like you're on a path for huge transformational change within Ethiopia.

[00:51:38] So looking forward to keeping an eye out and ear on the ground in terms of how things transpire and what happens.

[00:51:46] So, yeah, thank you for joining us today.

[00:51:47] It's been an absolute pleasure.

[00:51:49] Great.

[00:51:50] Looking forward to talking again.

[00:51:51] Thank you very much.

[00:51:54] Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast.

[00:51:58] If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share or tell a friend about it.

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[00:52:08] Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.