Trade, Tech, and Transformation: Creating a Lean and Trusted Ecosystem for Trade in Africa with Geoffrey de Mowbray

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast

[00:00:30] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast where we find inspiration.

[00:01:00] Today we have Jeffrey DeMolbury, CEO of Viad Trade and Dint International.

[00:01:12] Viad trade enables trade by digitising several aspects of the supply chain and bringing together

[00:01:19] customers and suppliers via a financial solution and Dint International is a supplier to mining

[00:01:27] construction industries. Welcome to the podcast Jeffrey, how are you?

[00:01:33] I'm very well thank you for having me on.

[00:01:36] It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I think we've tried to organise this a few

[00:01:40] times and each time we speak you're travelling to somewhere exotic.

[00:01:44] Well yes, trying to get things going and without a doubt the key to being in trading

[00:01:50] internationally is to be present in local markets so I'm lucky I love the travel but

[00:01:55] yes it's quite demanding at times.

[00:01:57] As always I'd like to start from the beginning so I was hoping you could introduce yourself

[00:02:03] and tell us a bit more about Jeffrey DeMolbury.

[00:02:06] Sure, so I'm British born in England but child to expat kids so I grew up all around the

[00:02:14] world my further work for the British government and then another for the United Nations.

[00:02:18] I think I was always someone who struggled a little bit at school I mean I was reasonably

[00:02:23] bright but I just wasn't very good at school and I remember even in playgrounds trading

[00:02:28] you know whether it's cards or snap bracelets or things.

[00:02:32] Yes, from a very early age it was kind of clear that I I suppose did things a little bit

[00:02:38] differently and when I got to my late teen years I was a little bit lost and there was

[00:02:42] the direction of going to university or to carrying on and as I mentioned school

[00:02:48] and I didn't work that well together and despite my dad particularly being quite upset

[00:02:53] I chose not to go to university and I tried a couple of jobs and to be honest I'm not

[00:02:58] very employable when I was in particularly worked out well but when I was 18 my parents

[00:03:03] moved to Cameroon and I was always a bit of a childhood techie particularly on the

[00:03:09] hardware side and when I first got to Cameroon I started teaching at L'Institut de l'African

[00:03:15] Institut de l'Informatique, the kind of the African Institute of IT which back in this

[00:03:20] was back in 2000 and you know I started seeing the opportunities and the kind of the interest

[00:03:27] and growth on the continent and I suppose to cut a long story short during that time

[00:03:33] I was there I was met by quite powerful emotions sort of seeing a lot of poverty in the

[00:03:39] country but also a lot of wealth beneath the ground or in their resources and I was

[00:03:45] quite pained with the disparity of wealth and it was fantastic seeing everything through

[00:03:50] the eyes of the United Nations doing good things but my view is especially with

[00:03:55] Africa really being a continent entrepreneur harnessing and giving people

[00:03:59] the ability to trade and to trade on sort of equal terms was a way to drive

[00:04:04] sustainable development so I think it's that vision that got me into setting up

[00:04:10] my early businesses and the business we run today and my passion really and I suppose

[00:04:15] my life's purpose is really purposeful profit you know doing business that benefits all

[00:04:20] concerned. A little bit about me personally I guess I live in the UK I travel a lot which

[00:04:28] I love my hobbies I fly a little plane that's my kind of hobby I think we spoke

[00:04:32] about that before and I can't surf a little bit but really what I love most is

[00:04:38] seeing new opportunities and mentoring business people to be the best they can

[00:04:43] be and as I said you know do business with purpose.

[00:04:46] Thank you for sharing that so you mentioned you have an entrepreneurial spirit

[00:04:50] since you were young trading cards did things differently moved to Cameroon and

[00:04:56] saw the opportunities on the continent which has brought you to where

[00:05:00] you are so you shared your passion behind why you started via trade and

[00:05:05] DINs what's the journey being like behind that motivation?

[00:05:10] Longer than I expected.

[00:05:15] I think you know back then I was thinking yeah we can make all this happen and part

[00:05:19] of that has been things take longer than you expect but also you're relying on

[00:05:24] market dynamics and things changing and people being ready so DINs started

[00:05:30] originally in 2005 as a partnership in the UK and then as a company in 2007

[00:05:36] and very simply it supplies goods and services predominantly machinery parts

[00:05:43] and financing into mining and construction companies.

[00:05:47] What we were really learning and still are learning through doing this is the

[00:05:51] challenges and opportunities of trading cross-border and particularly selling

[00:05:55] into Africa so the challenges can be that of logistics that can be of

[00:06:01] you know the market dynamics sometimes transparency isn't what it needs to

[00:06:05] be getting paid all of those aspects of trade binding customers and keeping

[00:06:11] those relationships so all of those aspects of trade we've kind of been

[00:06:17] doing and living and being reasonably successful at doing over the last 17

[00:06:22] or more years and you know being a trader is very much from the beginning of its

[00:06:27] journey although it's already has always been part of the original vision

[00:06:31] and just to explain a little bit about Vera it's actually the kind of means

[00:06:36] Latin for the way or the road and it's also an acronym and my mother

[00:06:41] always used to describe me as a child which is vision insight and affection

[00:06:44] now we kind of move that division insight and automation in our business

[00:06:49] but really is at the beginning of its journey although at the forefront of my

[00:06:53] vision 20 years ago which is to take all of our experience and distill it using

[00:06:59] technology to I suppose democratize international trade across the world but

[00:07:04] particularly in Africa to allow companies to trade without the barriers of language finance

[00:07:12] accessibility and to make it easier for everyone to you know run for their businesses and yeah

[00:07:18] we're at the beginning of our journey there and there's very much more a technology focus play

[00:07:23] so you slightly touched on this regarding the challenges around logistics transparency

[00:07:28] enduring trade in Africa so I was hoping we could go into a bit more detail regarding

[00:07:35] why do you believe these solutions are needed on the continent yeah that's a good question

[00:07:41] I suppose the simple answer would be if they weren't needed we wouldn't be in business

[00:07:47] and if we had all of the solutions that we needed we wouldn't need to create anything new

[00:07:53] but you know if you look at the continent of Africa and still far too many people

[00:07:59] refer to you know it's so different in different regions and such a vast territory

[00:08:05] but you know on a logistics front very tricky terrain still and to be clear things have

[00:08:10] improved lastly in the last 20 years but there still are challenges and there's challenges at

[00:08:15] borders part of this is you know because such large investment and projects are happening some

[00:08:23] thoughts are overwhelmed but it is unfortunately not like you're called the US or other parts

[00:08:29] of the world today where you can order something online and seamlessly get it in you know the

[00:08:34] next day into or in a couple of days time and some of the projects we work on in the mining

[00:08:38] space and construction are in very remote locations so I think there are some practical

[00:08:43] problems there's streamlining and bureaucratic problems and you know unfortunately and it's

[00:08:50] something we never get involved in but unfortunately the transparency isn't always there it's kind of

[00:08:57] it's again one of my pet projects that I'd love to solve it or help solve at some point in life

[00:09:03] because I do believe that comes from the lack of opportunity elsewhere but I think logistically

[00:09:08] it can be a challenge I think financially wise regardless of where you are in the world if you're

[00:09:15] extending credit to people who are not in the same country as you and sometimes don't speak the language

[00:09:20] it's hard to collect those funds sometimes and also in the context and I know this from being

[00:09:26] an entrepreneur myself sometimes communication isn't always as good as it is and I think there's still

[00:09:32] this the problem in the world over when people do run into problems sometimes people find it hard to

[00:09:38] be honest about that and so you kind of you get ghosted I suppose a little bit on that and I think

[00:09:44] that's a lot of the challenges that people find but I always find it interesting that the default

[00:09:48] rates in Africa I believe are actually statistically lower than they are in Europe which is which is

[00:09:54] amusing I hope I've answered your question or at least in part but I think a lot of the challenges

[00:10:00] lie in the fact that it is such a buoyant and dynamic market and obviously there's some countries

[00:10:08] more buoyant than others and so much going on that there's perhaps a little bit of what I would

[00:10:14] describe as chaotic so they're a chaotic approach so there is there is some structure in place

[00:10:19] but there's still because of the race of growth there's still quite a bit of chaos and I think

[00:10:24] you know everyone's adapting every you know international companies are working on international

[00:10:29] standards there are local customs which need to be taken into account and to be sensitive of

[00:10:36] how things work pretty quickly by you know by still doing things transparently and neatly.

[00:10:42] Thank you for that so you mentioned there are practical problems and streamlining problems we

[00:10:48] know that these problems aren't isolated they are experienced throughout the supply chain

[00:10:53] so with the work that you're doing how do you ensure that the needs and requirements of all

[00:10:58] parties involved in the supply chain are met? Well to be honest it's hard and I would be lying

[00:11:05] if we solved all the problems but I think and believe that a big part of this is bringing

[00:11:13] visibility to what's going on there's still a lot of competition and competition is not a

[00:11:18] bad thing but it is bringing visibility to all of those stakeholders which is what we aim to

[00:11:24] do through technology whether that's for opportunities whether that's for tracking

[00:11:29] information whether that's for data whether that's for payment information to really bring

[00:11:33] everything together in a single place because there are you know you even have it in the tech world

[00:11:40] in trade finance across the world there's lots of digital islands or analog islands and by

[00:11:45] bringing all of those together increasing visibility and critically collaboration

[00:11:52] rather than competition and it's an interesting thing actually for as long as I can remember in

[00:11:57] our business we try to do things differently and I suppose that's the key whenever someone's doing

[00:12:02] something one way we challenge why we shouldn't do it the opposite way and one of my favorite

[00:12:06] examples of that is in the world today most people spend a lot of time and energy protecting

[00:12:14] their ideas and my rationale or hypothesis on this is actually if we are in 2024 today

[00:12:24] and we see what the world should look like in the future if you try and put that in place today it

[00:12:31] will be rejected because there's too much of a jump whereas if each baby step you make it well

[00:12:38] I suppose in part open source but make it so that everyone copies you which tends to happen

[00:12:43] but actually make your business benefit from being copied because it then changes the norm

[00:12:49] I suppose my view on how you save a lot of time and money and actually

[00:12:53] energy benefit everyone else by kind of sharing that information and if you basically your business

[00:12:58] on its success is if people copy what you're doing then you know you save yourself a lot

[00:13:04] of time and energy. I agree, I agree if we can take a couple of steps back in the

[00:13:10] introduction we mentioned that you have a focus on the mining, construction and heavy

[00:13:16] equipment industries is there a reason why you've decided to focus on these industries?

[00:13:23] That's a really good question and I think there's a number of reasons some obvious some are

[00:13:28] perhaps less obvious. I think the first as I mentioned at the beginning I was working in

[00:13:34] the IE and selling news computers to schools and actually the way I got into selling spare

[00:13:39] parts for machines is I met some people in a restaurant getting take away one night and

[00:13:45] they were really struggling to get spare parts for their machines in a cost-effective way

[00:13:50] and in a reasonable time and I won't bore you with the backstory but they very kindly gave me

[00:13:56] the opportunity to prove ourselves and we did and that's that's sort of how it begun

[00:14:01] and I suppose the reason I find spare parts and machinery so interesting and relevant for Africa

[00:14:10] and the world over is they're used in most infrastructure and mining operations so it's

[00:14:16] a product that has a very far reach, it's a product that is you know reasonably high value

[00:14:23] and it's a B2B product so kind of by coincidence we started in those spaces.

[00:14:29] Another sort of reason for that is I don't like comparing this to other businesses but if you see

[00:14:34] what Amazon has done in the sort of B2C world you know they started by selling books and they

[00:14:40] did that very well and then they expanded into other products. The way I would see that as we

[00:14:46] started with machine parts and machinery which gives us you know a good market size to prove

[00:14:52] concepts something that's traded and sold all over the world so it can take us wherever we need to be

[00:14:59] something that's very relevant in Africa today but ultimately it is a product with a skew with

[00:15:04] an item number. So once we've kind of perfected the model for this there's nothing stops us

[00:15:10] and this is the aim to replicate into other industries quite aggressively. Now aggressively

[00:15:16] perhaps the wrong way but it gives us the ability to do that. I think the other reasons

[00:15:22] particularly 20 years ago but still nor so now the amount of infrastructure investment and development

[00:15:28] required on the African continent is enormous and it is one of the key roots to increasing the

[00:15:36] benefiting the economies of African nations but I think mining for me given that we look at

[00:15:42] things from a purpose perspective mining has a mixed reputation you know on one side there's

[00:15:49] negative reports around the mining space on the other side you know as the world pushes to move

[00:15:54] to transition energy we need to mine more than I think man has ever mined before.

[00:16:01] In the context of Africa mining it kind of encapsulates the conflict I think in my mind

[00:16:09] and also in the world somewhat and that you have the African continent is one of the richest by

[00:16:14] resources and yet it's one of the poorest on the surface and you know I haven't sold this but this

[00:16:21] is part of our business aim is to bring some balance to that because a continent which is so

[00:16:27] rich in its resources and yet the population is still far too many or on two dollars or less

[00:16:33] a day just seems unacceptable and that's I suppose part of the part of what we aim to do.

[00:16:39] A lot of my sort of friends who are in this sort of NGO space would question my involvement but

[00:16:46] I as I mentioned earlier it's a necessity and one of the cornerstone industries of the world

[00:16:53] everything you know but if mining didn't exist we wouldn't be having this conversation

[00:16:58] and so my belief is by getting involved in the difficult industries and driving positive change

[00:17:03] from the inside out is is the best approach. As you mentioned you focused on these industries

[00:17:09] by coincidence but now that you are in the mining and construction industry what unique

[00:17:15] challenges do these companies face in Africa? I mean there are many but I would say predominantly

[00:17:24] with the focus and rightly so the focus on localization a lot of the challenge comes down

[00:17:31] to access to finance right so you have a lot of local contractors sometimes operating in difficult

[00:17:41] territories who've been awarded large subcontracts and you know whether the banks are asking for

[00:17:50] security they can't provide or whether the banks have reached their lending limits for them

[00:17:56] often these companies have great contracts but struggle to get at a fair price access to finance

[00:18:03] to be able to buy their machinery to fulfill on those projects so I would say there are others

[00:18:10] but I would say access to finance is one of the greatest challenges. So how would you

[00:18:15] manage to address this challenge of access to finance through via trade? As I mentioned before a

[00:18:23] lot of our solutions are born out of our own problems and experience. I mean I set up this

[00:18:28] business and borrowed a small amount of money from my parents I can't remember how much they charge

[00:18:33] me interest which I'm pleased they did because they told me the value of it and you know we've

[00:18:38] never taken external equity you know I can relate to a lot of African entrepreneurs in that sense

[00:18:43] because in many ways that's in similar but different ways that's how they grow so our biggest

[00:18:49] challenge was you know we started winning some pretty major contracts with mining companies

[00:18:55] and when we went to a bank they're basically going yeah it's great you've got that contract but if

[00:18:59] everything goes wrong we're looking at your business and you don't have the money to repay

[00:19:03] us and that was so frustrating because you could do all of this great work and yet you couldn't

[00:19:10] deliver on it. So around there are various solutions that we found but it's been so arduous and we

[00:19:18] needed specialist teams and you know often the finances are speaking a different language to

[00:19:26] you know to what a normal company would know and a lot of normal companies don't have the

[00:19:31] resource a team dedicated to this so I suppose around seven years ago we started accessing

[00:19:37] export credit agency finance which is more familiar in today's world but it used to be sort of one of

[00:19:43] the best kept secrets it's in effect where a government or a multilateral provides a guarantee

[00:19:51] to a bank for a loan or for a facility so Afrixim do a lot of work in this space but around

[00:19:58] seven years ago we started working with UK export finance which is the world's oldest

[00:20:04] export credit agency in the UK's export credit agency historically they were very focused on

[00:20:10] large infrastructure deals and defence deals and aviation deals but around seven or eight years

[00:20:18] ago we took a transaction to them it was actually for Ghana which we needed help and support

[00:20:25] and we found although it can be a fairly long process we found it to be incredibly beneficial

[00:20:31] because they provided guarantee to the bank so the bank are no longer taking risk on us or the end

[00:20:37] client and you know the first transaction wasn't as smooth as any of us would have liked I think

[00:20:44] from from all perspectives but it gave us you know insight into actually to to drive trade

[00:20:51] and support trade governments play a vital role in this and when you do get that formula right

[00:20:58] the benefits are huge for the exporter which we are for the buyer for the bank and and for the

[00:21:05] exporting country and the host nation so I think you know after doing quite a lot of these for

[00:21:12] customers around the African continent and I can I can talk to some examples later if that would

[00:21:18] be helpful um we thought actually you know this process is great but it is quite long

[00:21:25] it's quite hard and there's different people speaking although often all in English or all

[00:21:29] in French they're still speaking different languages so our aim is to kind of through our

[00:21:35] experience and doing these transactions with the exporter credit agencies is to make them

[00:21:41] simpler and quicker because everyone wants to fill this gap it's just hard to do and

[00:21:47] we've found the best way to to begin doing that was to do deals you highlighted that a

[00:21:52] lot of companies don't have specialist resources or capacity to address access to finance challenges

[00:21:59] so the challenges that you're seeing would you say that they're specific to a certain size of

[00:22:04] company or are we seeing this across the board it's a good question no I think there are differences

[00:22:10] and there are nuances and accessing international finance does have more requirements there's

[00:22:18] environmental and social and governance requirements there is a greater degree of

[00:22:24] transparency on on financials and what assets and loans there are so I would say the larger

[00:22:31] companies tend to be more sophisticated and well well versed with this because they do have

[00:22:36] dedicated teams and then really I think in this sort of small medium sized space it comes down

[00:22:42] to the the individual teams there are some customers we have where their finance director is

[00:22:48] incredibly responsive incredibly detailed incredibly open honest transparent you know all

[00:22:54] of the ideal things to make a transaction happen smoothly and quickly I think some of the

[00:23:01] many challenges into two categories one one's business not being ready for international

[00:23:06] finance so not having the policies and procedures not having the detailed accounts

[00:23:11] and forecasts which you know that can all be addressed and then I say I'm the second one

[00:23:17] which I sort of touched on at the beginning of this podcast is just that culture I suppose in spirit

[00:23:23] of being fully open about your situation and to be clear this is not unique to Africa this is SMEs

[00:23:30] all around all around and I'd be lying if I haven't been in that state before sometimes

[00:23:35] when you're growing and you desperately want things to happen you're afraid that if you

[00:23:39] share something that went wrong or something that's there that it might not happen but the irony is

[00:23:46] if you share all of that upfront the trust you instill in people and the ability to find solutions

[00:23:52] is much increased because credit people are smart people always work out if something's a miss so

[00:23:59] my advice to any business wanting to access any finance but particularly international finances

[00:24:05] put your cards on the table and you know be open and honest around the challenges but then

[00:24:10] solutions can be found great advice Jeffrey so if we look at it from the perspective of say local

[00:24:17] indigenous african companies how would you believe or feel that your financial solutions enable

[00:24:23] local businesses to grow and also tap into international markets I mean they could be

[00:24:29] international markets on or outside of the continent yeah that's a great question

[00:24:34] I'm going to frame it with one case study but I'm not going to mention the company's name just

[00:24:38] because I haven't got their permission but it's a great local contractor in Guinea Conakry

[00:24:44] and brothers set it up who are the key directors and they've won some major contracts in the

[00:24:51] country for Rio Tinto and the other major mining companies now actually I'll do them

[00:24:57] credit it's a company called GPC and GPC were you know they've been awarded these contracts

[00:25:04] and the local banks had reached their limits which often happens right and they came to us

[00:25:11] working with one of our partners with a requirement for equipment to deliver on these projects

[00:25:15] and praise to all parties involved their finance director was impeccable you know their

[00:25:21] end customers were helpful UKF took the time to understand the deal and the transaction

[00:25:28] and ultimately what this meant is they received 10 million worth of equipment

[00:25:33] which they've been able to repay or are currently repaying over a period of three years

[00:25:39] and as a result they've been able to fulfill their contracts they now want a lot more contracts

[00:25:45] which is terrific news and but I think one of the most impactful things for me is the

[00:25:51] Saturday I don't have the statistics but the amount of people they've increased locally

[00:25:56] has increased considerably and I forget you probably know this better than I but

[00:26:01] you know each salary in Africa feeds many mouths and that in itself perhaps only a small

[00:26:08] indication but that really shows that investing in local businesses in that way providing the capital

[00:26:17] to do it helps them not only grow but also the employees and the amount of the amount of jobs

[00:26:22] that are on offer and I think that's quite powerful and you know with our clients we tend to

[00:26:29] try and go the extra mile and mentor them as best we can and share our experience too so

[00:26:36] so yes they don't suffer the same mistakes we've made so I hope that kind of answers your question but

[00:26:42] for me just enabling local contractors to fulfill on their contracts where they wouldn't have been able

[00:26:48] to otherwise access cheaper funding and by doing so create many more jobs in the community is

[00:26:55] it's not the whole solution for the challenge but it's it's a certainly a step in the right

[00:26:59] direction. I guess a lot of people might be listening and thinking this sounds great

[00:27:05] and we haven't quite explained in terms of what is the process and in terms of where do you sit in

[00:27:12] relation to the clients or customer and the financial institutions and how does it work?

[00:27:19] Yeah that's a good question and I would be surprised if there wasn't interest. I am going

[00:27:23] to be honest though it's still not easy right it's not it's not free money without any ties

[00:27:29] that has to make business sense but to answer your question specifically so arguably before

[00:27:35] we started doing what we're doing there are banks out there who will work with the ECAs

[00:27:41] there are independent suppliers who will supply their goods and provide financing but I suppose

[00:27:48] the role we take is we work closely with the client to prepare their submission which

[00:27:54] we submit to UKF or to we're spreading this to other export credit agencies now but specifically for

[00:28:01] sort of less than 30 million because anything about that the big banks will take on themselves

[00:28:06] directly so we work with the customer to get themselves ready to submit we then manage the

[00:28:13] submission into the export credit agency and get because the way the ECAs work is they

[00:28:19] issue a premium which is basically their cost for guaranteeing the transaction so we get it to a

[00:28:25] point where the export credit agency is happy to give an indication that they will provide support

[00:28:32] at that point we then work with our banking partners to identify the best funding partner

[00:28:39] and that will depend on which country they're in you know the length of the transaction

[00:28:45] and we you know we try and support our customers by getting them the best deal for the finance that

[00:28:51] they can do once that's in place we then move to the commercial side of things and rather than

[00:28:57] this is the same with our dense trading model we don't represent any specific supplier and the

[00:29:04] reason for that is when you represent although you can benefit from larger margins when you

[00:29:10] represent a specific manufacturer you are tied to that manufacturer and we are purposefully focused

[00:29:17] on what the client's needs are so you take the example I mentioned earlier there was a need for 10

[00:29:23] million and the equipment that was required was from multiple different suppliers and so we

[00:29:29] worked with the customer analyze what equipment was required working with ECAs there's normally

[00:29:36] a minimum content requirement for the supporting ECAs so with UK efforts a minimum of 20% although

[00:29:44] as they would like to say is a minimum not a target so we sort of take that list analyze what's

[00:29:50] needed change in where UK goods are available and accessible and present that in tandem to

[00:29:58] the client as a commercial proposal and either we work on a fixed price basis or a cost plus

[00:30:03] basis depending upon what we've agreed with the customer now assuming that's all acceptable there's

[00:30:09] a commercial contract between us and the customer and often the sub-suppliers there's three way

[00:30:15] communications with us in the supplier that's the way it works best when it's fully open book

[00:30:20] but we have a commercial contract in place with the customer we have separate sub-agreements in

[00:30:26] place with the suppliers and then once that's all in place we go through the final approvals

[00:30:31] and then the bank pays us for the goods and the customer repays the bank over time.

[00:30:38] Now that's an oversimplified model but hopefully that is that clear?

[00:30:43] Very clear and concise I know from my work in international trade and also previously working

[00:30:48] at the Department for International Trade now the Department for Business and Trade this can

[00:30:54] be a hugely onerous and detailed process so how have you leveraged technology to digitize various

[00:31:03] aspects of this to make it a bit more efficient and transparent for yourself and the companies that

[00:31:09] you work with? Indeed and again a great question is very much still work in progress my fear will

[00:31:15] be for some years to come everyone's looking at things in a different way for example in our

[00:31:21] transactions today there's probably more lawyers than there need to be everyone's using a different

[00:31:27] resource for KYC or you know your customer details etc so some of this is even before we

[00:31:34] get to digital and getting all the parties to agree to using one source of the truth

[00:31:40] because that even before you get to a technological solution saves a lot of time and money.

[00:31:45] I think the next phase is you know bringing some because a lot of ECA transactions historically

[00:31:51] were for very big transactions or for very large values a lot of the assessments were very

[00:31:58] considered you know there was a lot of consideration that went into them and I do praise

[00:32:02] particularly UKF for still finding solutions where credits are challenging but we're trying

[00:32:08] to make it more formulaic and working with them and the banks to submit standardized information

[00:32:15] for a standardized response and then if it's a yes it's much quicker if it's a no it's you know

[00:32:22] it still goes down it still goes down the considered route but perhaps is a little slower

[00:32:28] so I think to answer your question has begun with a lot of automation in our own systems

[00:32:33] and at the moment we're currently building a trade and finance sort of marketplace to

[00:32:40] enable customers to self-serve and fill in a lot of this information up front but more

[00:32:46] importantly break down the stages so that you know you submit a certain amount of information

[00:32:51] and you get an indication that it makes sense to do more because sometimes the information can

[00:32:56] be a little bit overwhelming so it's breaking it down into those baby steps and you know

[00:33:01] like a lot of Chief Product Officer is always driving hard on this like any product is not about

[00:33:07] creating a digital version of an analog problem it's actually rethinking it and from a user experience

[00:33:13] perspective making it as simple as possible and ensuring that information isn't entered twice

[00:33:20] and you know just removing some of the the fat in the process if you will and I think going

[00:33:25] forward there's all kinds of exciting things that can be done in the automation realm but a lot of

[00:33:32] things now are just getting things standardized and giving visibility of information so you know

[00:33:38] you take this portal we'll be we're building or this app we're building you know the customer us

[00:33:44] sub supplies the banks and ukf or other ecas will have full visibility and access to the

[00:33:51] information now not necessarily everyone will have all of that information but the information

[00:33:55] that's relevant to them which will just you know removing emails from things is one very

[00:34:00] simple way to speed things up so I hope that gives you a little bit of a flavor there's

[00:34:04] there's some exciting things in development but maybe we'll have to have a rematch where

[00:34:08] they're launched and I can tell you more in detail definitely definitely it gives me a flavor

[00:34:13] and it's great to hear about the trade finance marketplace that you're developing

[00:34:18] so what are your thoughts in terms of the intersection of finance technology in trade

[00:34:24] is this the way forward and are you positioning yourself to be a player in that landscape in

[00:34:30] terms of I think they call it trade tech yeah trade take and it's you know a phrase that I was

[00:34:37] familiar with cut a few years ago but it's you know fintech was all the race now it's trade

[00:34:42] tech so simply but yes I'm I'm hoping that we through our approach are going to either directly

[00:34:51] or indirectly drive considerable change in this space now when I say directly that will be things

[00:34:57] that we do but indirectly it comes back to this competition point if someone solves a problem in

[00:35:02] the industry before we get there I don't view that as competition I view that as a celebration

[00:35:09] that there is a business that's finding a niche and being able to capitalise on that and something

[00:35:16] less than we have to do I think our focus more is bringing all of these stakeholders together

[00:35:21] and where there is a gap filling that gap because as I mentioned earlier there are some

[00:35:27] terrific innovations out there in the fintech space whether that's digital builds of exchange

[00:35:33] now or ebuilds of lading or you know various fintech solutions but the problem is they're not all

[00:35:40] sort of joined up and you know unless you have you can have the best technology but unless you have

[00:35:49] companies using it it's never going to get traction and I think that's part of the benefit

[00:35:54] of having built up our trading business is whatever technologies we develop or we

[00:36:02] or companies we partner with we have an ecosystem to test and implement those in

[00:36:07] so I'd like to you know again it slightly comes down to my ideology of how we've been

[00:36:13] run the business I believe that we will make quite a dramatic change in this space in the

[00:36:21] next five to ten years maybe sooner just through prior experience on being conservative

[00:36:27] but some of that maybe you know others seeing that opportunity we're not

[00:36:31] we're not aiming to be the best or the well actually that means we phrase we are aiming

[00:36:37] to be the best at what we do but we're not aiming to control this we're taking a slightly

[00:36:43] different view and hoping to create a landscape and a methodology which others can adopt and

[00:36:48] some of this is happening already so I may have waffled on a little bit here but in summary

[00:36:54] yes I see us being very prominent in this and my hope is that we can bring together all of the great

[00:37:00] actors and either fill the gaps ourselves or some entrepreneurs will fill those gaps so that it

[00:37:07] can work harmoniously. I'm glad to hear that you are taking a very pragmatic and as you say

[00:37:13] a different view and the guess with that comes a balance so how do you maintain a balance

[00:37:19] between the innovation and also the reliability in terms of the technology that you're providing

[00:37:25] the solutions that you're providing for the market. Yeah and again being sort of modest on where you

[00:37:32] know technology is still not nearly as developed as it can and should be and I think the balance

[00:37:38] there is baby steps right there's I know plenty of people in the London tech space who've you

[00:37:47] taken huge amounts of investment built loads of technology they haven't fully got the product

[00:37:52] market fit yet you know I think the fashion of valuing businesses on their losses is ending

[00:37:58] but you know a lot of these businesses have never made cash so I suppose it's about taking

[00:38:03] your time it's like the hair and the tortoise right this is not a sprint it's a marathon

[00:38:08] driving this change. So it is baby steps and this is why having our own trading business

[00:38:15] is so important if it works for us it should work for others now there might be some variants

[00:38:20] but we make sure that it works for us first and there's still a lot of and I'm sure there will

[00:38:24] be for a long time a lot of human input in these to make sure it works. Slightly changing subject

[00:38:31] but your last question prompted this thought of me and it comes back to this when I was in my

[00:38:37] think we can all be guilty of this a little bit but when I was in my like early 20s I was like

[00:38:41] I'm going to be a billionaire you know it's all about the cash all about the marketing's that you

[00:38:45] know all about the materialist stuff and I don't get me wrong I still like the nice things in life

[00:38:51] but I do think that's kind of dare I say wrong with business a little bit today because I think

[00:38:59] all of feeding all of that stuff and focusing on the money so I can can leave us a little

[00:39:04] bit hollow inside and let's remember money and finances is the greatest responsibility a human

[00:39:11] can have um and how you use it is so important and I think not least probably because I'm technically

[00:39:17] middle-aged now you know I've been reflecting for the last year when I'm lying on my deathbed

[00:39:24] am I going to wish I had more cash absolutely not you know what am I going to do with that

[00:39:29] right and I there's two things that I want to look back on I don't have a family yet so that may

[00:39:35] change if I have a family but the two things I want to look back on is one I want to have made a real

[00:39:43] positive impact in the world and my late father said to me not long before he died

[00:39:49] um said Jeffrey the best way to change the world is for no one to know that you're doing it

[00:39:54] and that's quite hard but his point there was it for not to be about your ego not to be all about you

[00:40:00] otherwise you're not creating lasting change and I think the second element when I look back on is

[00:40:06] I want to have seen everything I want to see and that's why I love this work in international trade

[00:40:11] you know it's the second oldest industry in the world and again it lets you see the majority

[00:40:16] of the world some very profound words there in terms of focusing on money can leave us hollow

[00:40:23] and impact is key so what impact do you think the technology solutions that you're providing can have

[00:40:30] on the local economies on the continent so again a lot of these have been in my mind for many years

[00:40:37] and I'm a little frustrated with myself we have made more progress but I'd say some simple examples

[00:40:42] let me paint a simple example most mine sites that you go to across Africa and across the world

[00:40:48] will have a man or a lady in a 20 foot container who is selling you know supplies for mining companies

[00:40:55] and say hard hats boots that kind of stuff and this is only a simple example but it's replicable to

[00:41:02] other things and you see you know a mining company for example might need 3000 pairs of steel

[00:41:09] toe cap boots and for me that man or woman is the perfect person because they're there they're

[00:41:16] keen they can you know be on site you're still enabling that human to human contact and I think

[00:41:23] that's the important point technology is not there to replace humans is there to supercharge them

[00:41:29] and if we can use that to enable that human to human contact or relationship I think that

[00:41:33] will be key but in that particular example the reason why that company or man or lady wouldn't

[00:41:41] get that business is the mine won't pay them in advance they don't have the cash to go and buy the

[00:41:48] goods and then offer credit and if they had been an agent for someone offshore in the past they

[00:41:54] probably would have done one deal and then the company offshore or the large company would have

[00:41:59] said well we don't need them well we can just manage it ourselves so I think although a little

[00:42:05] illustration there I think one of the aims we have is to enable small businesses individuals

[00:42:16] on a level playing field to be able to offer goods and services to you know whether these are domestic

[00:42:24] companies or to export without the need for finance and it can be structured in a way that

[00:42:30] enables them to get paid but just their margin the suppliers to get paid and the customer to

[00:42:34] get their payment so I think a lot of it does come down to finance I think a lot of it the other

[00:42:41] part that comes down to it is that visibility and accessibility of information that I dare I say

[00:42:47] without sounding too revolutionary but democratization and trade so if you are a one-man band you

[00:42:52] have the same chances of a much larger business if you can do your job is that kind of cover

[00:42:59] your question yes yes yes I mean you touching the key point there in terms of technology

[00:43:04] is not there to replace people it's there to enhance their work we know that technology is fast

[00:43:09] moving and we're always seeing new trends emerging are there any key trends that you've seen in the

[00:43:16] role of say technology in trade tech that you're currently excited about oh that's a good question

[00:43:25] I think if I'm honest there's lots of great innovations but as I said until you see some

[00:43:29] of them really flying there's good ideas but not the application it's hard to get

[00:43:34] become a little bit cynical because there's a great in a bit you know we have the whole blockchain

[00:43:38] craze however many years ago and they're still valuing that but are all trade transactions

[00:43:44] blockchain today no because the landscape doesn't kind of ready for it so I'm not excited about

[00:43:51] quite a lot of things but I think there's a bit of work and I feel that our work is a key

[00:43:56] part of this to get it to a point where we really can get excited and really can see

[00:44:01] the the big changes on this I think you know touching on what you said around the human

[00:44:06] human side you know I don't know about you but anyone who sells me and sends me an out of the

[00:44:15] blue AI generated email on LinkedIn message I have to see if I'm interested in buying

[00:44:21] I have like FX traders who call me up and I'm getting pretty massive it's just it's just not the way

[00:44:29] to sell right and I think you know this is where the advent of AI is going to be I believe

[00:44:37] tremendous for the world there's some very high risks which we all need to get a handle on

[00:44:41] otherwise it could go badly wrong but I don't believe it's going to replace humans and even

[00:44:45] before we get to the AI standard the point of this the reason I travel so much is I want to sit across

[00:44:54] with people develop relationships understand or make them and share you know that human part

[00:45:01] and I think that is so important we are all human I think in in some ways we might have

[00:45:07] lost some of our humanness in the last few decades because we've been such through such a

[00:45:12] change so it's rediscovering that and embracing that human to human interaction but taking away the

[00:45:19] mundane things and and to do things that machines do better and quicker for us so yeah I don't have

[00:45:27] any specific things in the trade tech space I'm super excited about at the moment because I think

[00:45:31] just a few of them need to get to come together and actually become really impactful and get some

[00:45:37] real traction I know you mentioned that you've become cynical about trade tech trends but how would

[00:45:44] you keep yourself informed ahead of the trends and I guess adapt so that you stay ahead in the space

[00:45:53] that's a good question so I think I'll answer that personally and then from the company

[00:45:58] perspective so actually I'll do the company first so I'm lucky that are in our team

[00:46:03] everyone is I mean we don't catch everything but everyone's pretty much up to speed on what's being

[00:46:07] done and a lot of stuff's being done in Europe some good stuff being done in Africa so we're kind of

[00:46:15] we the team keep me abreast of things but I the main way I keep abreast coming back to that

[00:46:21] point is by traveling and seeing what the challenges and opportunities are and talking to people

[00:46:26] and that is and also as our trading business using them and finding them I mean if there's

[00:46:33] if we have a problem let me try and find the solution if the solution isn't there we consider

[00:46:37] whether we're going to to attack that as a future product so I think it's for me personally

[00:46:45] is talking to people I have to confess I start from a kind of first principles thoughts on a

[00:46:51] lot of these things and I try rather than by looking at what is there first I shame shape

[00:46:59] the thoughts and vision of what we want to do without any kind of barriers and then see what exists

[00:47:06] out there to to to complement that perfect perfect I like that response keeping it real Jeffrey

[00:47:14] so moving from trends and looking at the future Africa's future where do you see

[00:47:19] African five years time with regard to its use of technology to facilitate or enhance global trade

[00:47:28] I see it at the forefront now there are certain things that need to happen all that to be a

[00:47:34] reality but I think one of the many reasons I started my business on the African continent is

[00:47:41] you know there's in many ways because there are many challenges it's much easier to

[00:47:48] innovate solutions so I actually believe if the mentality of people is aligned for let's

[00:48:00] say the greater good Africa has the potential to be the key innovation hub

[00:48:10] where technologies are tried tested developed and then exported around around the world once

[00:48:17] there's track once there is traction and if you look at the demographics of Africa

[00:48:23] if you look at the you know the opportunities going forward I think there is a very real chance

[00:48:31] that it could be at the forefront of that now there would be many cynics in my world particularly

[00:48:35] older generations who worked on the African continent for many years he would say you know

[00:48:41] it might be tough for that to ever happen and there are don't get me wrong there are

[00:48:45] challenges but I think it's mainly one of mindset and but yeah I mean you look at

[00:48:52] something like mobile pay I mean I don't know my stats here but you know mobile pay has been used

[00:48:57] ages before in Africa then we would probably adopt a bit in Europe and you know you look at the

[00:49:03] leapfrogs that come in the cell phone revolution no fixed infrastructure you know all of these

[00:49:09] things can change very rapidly so I'm very hopeful and like I said I think some of the

[00:49:17] some there are some challenges but technology itself may address them fantastic so looking closer

[00:49:23] to home where you see yourself via trade in five years time what role will you be playing

[00:49:30] on the continent in terms of promoting trade in Africa and beyond that's a great question so for

[00:49:37] me personally interestingly I'm trying to say that we are truly a company rather than you know

[00:49:47] Jeff's Jeff's group of people doing good things I'm trying to make myself redundant from the business

[00:49:55] there's not to say I won't do anything but it's to demonstrate that the business can not only operate

[00:50:00] but thrive without me and the simple way of doing that is whenever you employ anyone

[00:50:06] employ someone who is much much better than you at something right and it's hard to do that as a

[00:50:12] founder sometimes because maybe you feel threatened but that in my opinion is the only way to go from

[00:50:18] being a sort of founder led business to being a true a true a true business so that's my kind

[00:50:25] of personal journey and I'm going through that at the moment and I'm lucky I've got an amazing

[00:50:31] team around me who helped my trust and some really exciting things are happening and so for

[00:50:36] me personally that will probably enable me to probably do what I do best travel the world and

[00:50:43] I suppose selling but getting people excited and bought into the idea of what we're doing growing

[00:50:48] that network in terms of our businesses themselves you know dense is a trading business today I see

[00:50:56] going from strength to strength and over the next couple of years I do really see

[00:51:03] impact becoming quite profound and again I if people choose to copy us that's fantastic but

[00:51:10] my main aim here is actually to bring everyone together right and because working together

[00:51:19] always results in greater success than just working in RRI in isolation. Fantastic thank you for

[00:51:25] sharing that and I look forward to seeing how things develop and I hope you get to travel

[00:51:31] as much and as often as you please in the near future so the next question is the last one

[00:51:37] Quote of the week. As people we often have quote mantras, proverbs or affirmations that keep

[00:51:43] us going when times are challenging or when times are good do you have one that you can share with

[00:51:48] us today? Yes it's a terrific question I might have I might have reeled some of them off I

[00:51:54] do have loads of them but whether one can immediately come to mind I'd say probably

[00:51:59] comes down to what I said just now which is you know collaboration results in greater success

[00:52:06] than working on your own you know it is working with people and I think kind of related to that

[00:52:12] it is you know a lot of the challenges in the world and in ourselves are driven by fear so it

[00:52:20] is really you know conjuring that fear and doing it anyway. Brilliant brilliant brilliant I agree 100%

[00:52:29] and I guess that's a mantra for most business people entrepreneurs founders to follow.

[00:52:35] As we come to the end of today's conversation I was wondering if you have any closing remarks

[00:52:40] final course of action for people who are interested in the work that you're doing?

[00:52:45] That's very kind I think closing remarks would be you know if

[00:52:53] if anything I've said today is helpful please feel free to get in touch with us whether we can

[00:52:57] help you or not directly and we'll always do our best to signpost as I hope you've sensed I'm

[00:53:03] incredibly passionate about purposeful business and supporting entrepreneurs in their journey

[00:53:11] and in international trades so I hope those of you who share that passion interest or excitement

[00:53:19] and benefited from today and I will work on some more mantras as well I feel I can do it for

[00:53:25] justice but I'll keep in post on that but I also want to thank you so much for having me on

[00:53:29] today it's a real honor and privilege and I'm just super excited about this space and hoping

[00:53:36] we can do it justice in the coming years. Fantastic what a way to end today's conversation

[00:53:42] thank you Jeffrey's been a great conversation some valuable insights and hearing how you're

[00:53:47] leveraging technology finance logistics to facilitate global trade very enlightening

[00:53:55] and it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much.

[00:54:00] Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast

[00:54:04] if you've enjoyed this episode please subscribe share or tell a friend about it you can also rate

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[00:54:17] the Unlocking Africa podcast