Locally Led Development: The Importance of Local Leadership in International Development With Gretchen Villegas

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: When I was in the field, I was already seeing incomes increasing as a result of being closer

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to the communities, bringing them in as stakeholders with a voice in the solutions.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We really needed to forward fund some of these inputs and some of the training around

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: alternating the crops and using cover cropping in order to bring that soil back to being

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: healthy. They really want to break that cycle of poverty. They want to make a difference.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we are on the verge of a different type of development on the continent of Africa.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast where we find inspirational people who are doing

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today, we have Gretchen Villegas,

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: a global development executive with 25 years of expertise in innovative strategies to achieve

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: social impact and has a passion for transformation in disrupting poverty and empowering vulnerable

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: communities. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast. Gretchen, how are you?

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing just fine. Thank you. And you?

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very well, thank you. So where are you calling us from today?

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I am calling you from the middle of the United States in Arkansas,

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: just outside Little Rock, Arkansas. I do know that you have listened to

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: quite a few episodes of the podcast and as you know, I like to start from the beginning. So

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I was hoping you could introduce yourself and tell us a bit more about Gretchen Villegas.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well thank you. And thank you so much for having me here so we can have this

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: conversation. I did not grow up in Arkansas and I had the opportunity to start in the P

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: score when I came out of graduate school and I actually ended up in Suriname, South America,

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: which you would think would be a Spanish speaking country, but it's actually not. So

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that is that I had to learn an African tribal language and it was just,

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: it was an amazing, absolutely amazing experience. From there, I went directly to the field,

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: meaning I was in Latin America and East and Southern Africa for about 15 years before

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: coming back to the United States. While I was abroad, I was working for US government

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: contractors, meaning the foreign aid that comes through our US Agency for International

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Development. That aid goes through different contractors and I was working in various

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: countries including Malawi and Tanzania and Kenya and Uganda and in those countries we were

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: able to work with very vulnerable communities partnering with private sector and also working

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: with global private sector from the United States and also working within Europe as well.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a great learning experience and that was the first part of my career.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I came back to the United States in 2014 to work on executive teams and the amazing

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: part of that is that I was able to take the learnings from being in the field to really

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: utilize that to my work within the United States and that really helped me, definitely.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I actually came back to Arkansas because my parents retired here.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of did that circle of being able to live in other countries and other cultures

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and I call Africa really my second home. I do, yeah.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Fantastic. So you touched on something interesting there which was that you started your career in

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the Peace Corps as a volunteer in Suriname, which is fantastic. So how did that experience

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: shape your approach to the work that you've done for a long part of your career which

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is in the global development space? It's amazing to say that in my early 20s

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: to have that experience really shaped me as a leader today and I would say how I approached

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: all of my work going forward. Through the Peace Corps came to a village, imagine a village

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: of 600 people who had come descendant from Africa, right? Who were actually slaves and who

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: then escaped and descended into the Amazon, created their villages and are extremely vibrant,

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: right? They're very vibrant, have their own language and culture and community and function

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: just like a city. And I went there to help them think through what are your needs,

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, what are the things that you would like to work on. And what I learned at that

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: time was what development was really all about. You know, when I went in my early 20s,

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea what I was getting into. I didn't know what international development meant at all

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and being there, right? And watching people carry buckets of water on their heads for over

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: a mile getting water from the spring so it would be clean drinking water and going out

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the fields and working in the rice fields to ensure there was food for the evening.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That gave me the perspective that, okay, life is different and life doesn't have to be like it

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: is at home. The key is to understand and listen carefully to what the community

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: is interested in doing. What do they want to do to make a better life for themselves and

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: their children and next generation? And what type of bridge can I be? What type of bridge,

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: how can I help with access to resources? Whether it's financial or knowledge,

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: what can I do to support that or link them to information? And it was at that point that

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say I kind of found my purpose and my definition of what international

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: development is. It's about being that bridge and it's about bringing resources together.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not about telling people what to do because people know what they need.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just being there to support. I agree. So as you mentioned,

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that experience shaped you as the leader that you are today. If we go a few steps back,

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: what was the reason for moving from the direct field work that you were doing to a more

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership role in international development organizations?

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: When I came back to the US from P score and I finished up my master's degree at the School

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: for International Training, which was a great place to have what I call my alternative master's

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: degree because there were people from all over the world learning different facilitation

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: techniques, proposal writing, designing of programs for emerging markets mainly.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I decided I wanted to go directly to the field. And when you go directly to the field,

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you lead projects in countries and you have to basically take on the lead role right away.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I went to the field, I took on first a deputy chief of party,

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I moved up, which basically does operations. And then I moved up to a chief

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: of party or a country director, which is basically the representative of that corporation

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in the country in order to manage the project. And you work with all the stakeholders,

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the government, the local private sector, the donors, multilateral, bilaterals and whatnot.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So whoever's funding the projects and you take on that leadership role right away.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So in my mid-twenties, I was in a leadership role. The interesting part for me was that

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I was already at that top of the leadership role, but I had different cultures and I had

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: different environments and contexts to work within. Although I had very clear guidelines

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of what I had to accomplish after my learnings within the Peace Corps, hire local staff who are

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: experts and have them explain to me and teach me what is the best way to get to use the funding,

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to use the time that we have, which are the stakeholders to bring together across the board,

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: government, private sector, local community-based organizations, external support stakeholders.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I asked the country, like in Uganda and Tanzania and Malawi, tell me what it would be

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in your dream. What would it be to bring all of that together and use the money we have in

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: this time period to make a difference? And honestly, Terisor, that's how I believe I was

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: effective. Thank you for sharing that. So as you mentioned, in your mid-twenties, you were

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: in a leadership role. So with your experience from your early career, that influenced your

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: understanding of some of the challenges that need to be addressed by international development

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations? Well, first of all, job creation for sure. You have many youth and you have many

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: women and even men in the rural areas of Africa. And I worked specifically in East,

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Southern and East Africa. There are not job opportunities. They're working the land if they

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: have any and enough to feed their family. But in order to create those job opportunities,

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you need investment. And so the investment I found, if you can use part of your development

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: funding to bring in different types of investment to help fuel the very local,

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the local rural economy and connect it into the cities and even regionally and provide

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: business opportunities. So for instance, we call it small medium enterprises. If you can create

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: opportunities for smallholder farmers, even the youth to be transporters or input suppliers,

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: if you can create opportunities, offer training, assistance, loans, grants that can be accessed

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: along with the knowledge and mentorship support to those very rural areas. There is no access

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to that right now. There's no access to grants, financing, even, you know, low interest

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: loans, because we know how high the interest rates are. But if you can fill that gap,

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you can link very clearly to a market, right or a system. So if you work in a market

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: system, and you can link smallholder farmers or that ecosystem that they work within to

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the cities and ensure that there's a market and ensure that they are part of the bigger picture,

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: then you've just created wealth. And if you create wealth for those who are connected into

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the vulnerable area, and they are making money, then they will continue to do that work even

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: when the project's over, right? Even when the donor has has pulled out. So I would say number

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: one, it's access to finance, it's access to opportunities. And it's breaking a system

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that's creating poverty. So if the only thing a development project can do is to break that

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: system and allow people from that vulnerable community to become part of the system,

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: then that will make the difference. But if we just keep fueling it with education, support,

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: handouts, that don't actually break the systemic part of that ecosystem where they live,

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that takes away their power to have a voice in that system and create wealth,

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: it'll never change. Interesting. So you touched on access to finance and opportunities.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess from your experience, why do you think development organizations are

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe not best placed, but in a good position to address some of these challenges?

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Global development organizations have spent years in countries in Africa. They have

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: hired and trained and created trust with many local staff. And the expertise is truly amazing.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: When you look at some of the degrees and the expertise of staff out of Uganda, Kenya,

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Malawi, Tanzania, I mean, it's amazing. Yeah, I know when I would go to find

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: expertise and hire people to teach me about conservation farming, about different aspects

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: of biosecurity was just amazing. I did not have to go out of the country. It was right

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: there. And that's a great sign. And I think they're very well placed because there is a

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: footprint on the ground. There's trust that's been created. And there are funds coming in

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that can help sort of fill the gap where, say, private sector is working in the communities

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: for their raw materials and to create supply chains along with those who are living

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: within those areas of Africa. But the private sector isn't willing to put all those funds into

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: all of the development to create the wealth. So basically, what nonprofits can do is kind of

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the risk. And in buying down the risk, there can really be that true partnership

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: between a nonprofit and a for-profit to help a community really reach a sustainable place.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you reach a sustainable place, everybody wins. The for-profit companies,

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, private, the local small, small medium entrepreneurs, the nonprofits, because

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: they reach their impact goals, everybody wins. So you've emphasized the importance of creating

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: wealth and a sustainable place. So what are some of the most effective strategies that you've seen

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: for breaking cycles of poverty and creating this wealth? Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And it has taken, I would say, various years of implementation and trying different things.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And truth be told, Africa is not one country. We all know that every place. Yes.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Every place is different. All of the factors are very different, especially in the economics,

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: trade, and the commodities that you're working within, especially looking at what assets are

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: each country. And so the way that I look at it and kind of process that I used in each country

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: when we would go to design a project is number one, what is it that is happening locally

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in the community? What are the people who live there? So whether it's smaller farmers

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or those who are vulnerable, what are they working in? So what are the livelihoods that

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: they are working in? And kind of map that out and say where are they connected to?

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're looking at, let's just take smallholder farmers for instance. If you are then

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: connected to local private sector, right? So kind of what I call my triple win strategy.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're connected to local private sector, what is that relationship like? Is there a give

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and take between it or not? And then you look at kind of that global private sector. Is there

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a footprint from global private sector? Is there a supply chain from global private sector there

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: or not? Or is there an opportunity that a global nonprofit or local nonprofit could partner

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: with, say a European based or a US based or even a globally based corporation to come in

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and support with say additional funds aligned to and along with the nonprofit that really aligns

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to the needs of the community in terms of their livelihoods or their needs around water,

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: around health, around security, around regenerative agriculture, inputs, market demand,

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: supply chain gaps that need to be worked on. So do you have the community? Do they have local

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and international private sector? Number one. So of the triple win strategy, number one is

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: where's the private sector in all of this or where could they be? Number two, where are the

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: international global development organizations and local CBOs or where could they be?

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And number three of the triple win strategy for me is around government. What are the enabling

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: features that the government has put in place? Is it enabling for private sector and nonprofits

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to come and work internally in the country with communities? And do the communities,

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02]: even according to the government, have a voice in how funds and timelines and activities are

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: used with their community? So that's a big question. So if you take private sector and

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: take corporations and you take nonprofits and you take the government and you align it together

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and you look at it to say, okay, if we think of this as a puzzle and say my goal,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: my North star is that that smallholder farmer or the one who needs the livelihood

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is actually going to create wealth at the end of the day. If I map all of this out

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and we say, take some funding from a large nonprofit coming out of the United States

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and we take some of the funding out of our fund we have and we leverage it to buy down

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the risk of a private sector partner. Are they willing to come in and train and teach

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and fill some supply gaps that they may have that would help a farming family then compete

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: inside the market system and with the government enforce and regulate it.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of the day, you're looking out saying, okay, I project in five, 10 years,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this will actually work. Then it could potentially be a triple win strategy.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all about not just can I make my indicator and oh, I'm going to spend the

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: money, make a checkbox. I did that training. I gave that grant. You actually have to map

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: out how all of the stakeholders and partners will work together to make the ecosystem work

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to build wealth for that family and for that community and multiply over time.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But you've got to do the deep thinking of how the money comes into the country and how it's

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: multiplied and utilized over time. And if that corporation isn't going to win anything,

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not going to take you up on it. And if that nonprofit doesn't meet their deliverables,

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02]: they're also not going to do it. And if the government is not giving credit,

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: they're also not going to do it. Very true.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how I think of what I call the triple win strategy. It takes extra work.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not required by donors to actually do that. But if you don't do it,

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: have you really done your part to help that community reach a sustainable outcome?

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the question I always ask myself.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So the triple win strategy requires the bringing together of for-profits,

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: nonprofits and government entities. Is that correct?

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. And mapping them.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And mapping them. So what are some of the challenges you've faced in bringing together

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: these very separate groups in terms of for-profits,

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: nonprofits and government departments, entities?

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a great question. Many times you have nonprofits. So for instance,

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: say, let me use a real example. So in Uganda, I was managing a project where

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the nonprofit won funding from the US Department of Agriculture.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And the funding that came in, we were able to work with smallholder farmers

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: within the northern region of Uganda around conservation farming techniques.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But it did not include that we could work with cooperatives and that we could help to

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: forward fund some of the inputs that were needed. Because basically what had happened

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: is that the private sector company that was there, and they were the secure market at the

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: time, they had been buying sunflower and I can't remember what else it was.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they were just horticulture crops. But the sunflower and what we know about

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: sunflower is that sunflower depletes the soil. And if you keep depleting soil,

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: soil has nothing to give. So we had to regenerate the soil over time.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what had to happen was that we really needed to forward fund some of these inputs

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and some of the training around alternating the crops and using cover cropping in order

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to bring that soil back to being healthy. Because the sunflower just kept depleting and

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: depleting, and there was basically nothing left to give. And the yields were going down

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and down every single year. And so what I had to do and the team had to do was we had

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to go back to the US Department of Agriculture and explain what we found.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And once we explained what we found, and the fact that if we opened our scope of budget to be able

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to forward fund some of the inputs, we could rectify the issue that we would have around

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: bringing fertility back to the soil. And at the same time, garner the trust

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: of that large private sector partner to buy down some of their risk because they were worried

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: about not being able to buy the commodity that they needed at the end of the day because

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the farmers would side sell, right? They side sell because it was they would make more money.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But since we would buy down some of the risk and make that happen,

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it would work out. And we did the math. And we showed the projection of impact and USDA

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: signed off on it. So that happens all the time when the objectives do not match. But you

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: have to do the extra work to make them match. Because if you don't converge the objectives of

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the donors and work together with the resources you have, again, you're not going to reach

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: sustainable outcome. You may reach your individual impact goals and you could call that

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: successful. But in my world, success is families not having to rely on development

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: partners going forward. Thank you for sharing that Gretchen. So you've been involved in this

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: space for around 20 years? Yeah. Yes. So since you've been involved in the social development

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: space or the international development space in Africa, how have you seen a develop? What

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: would you say some of the key milestones or movements or changes that you've seen within

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the space? It has really evolved over time. And I would say in a good way. It has evolved where

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I have seen number one, many more corporations becoming part of the answer and partnering.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They're partnering for solutions and they are looking to seek ways to help fill the gap of

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: supply chains that they have in a very positive, socially responsible way. So that's one thing I've

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: seen that I really respect. Now there are those who do not do it the right way that unfortunately

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: can sometimes give others a bad name. And so you'll hear that as well. But there are so

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: many who are doing a great job. And I think finding those values aligned partnerships

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: through private sector are important and they're there. I guarantee you they are there

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and they are thriving when you find them. And the second is, and this is something very

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: important coming up right now. It's that there is a real push towards locally led development.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The U.S. government as well as many other countries have signed a memorandum of

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: understanding stating that a higher portion of their development funding little by little

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: towards 2030 and our sustainable development goals will go directly to

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: local, locally based groups to try to help them really build up their capacities,

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: leadership and abilities to develop their own countries. And I think that's a great

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: opportunity to really take that expertise on the continent and give them a voice,

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: really give them a voice and empower them to listen to where there are options for solutions.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the truth is those who are closest to the problems, those who are closest to the

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: challenges, right? They come from the villages. They have relatives in the villages. There is

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: an innate responsibility in someone from there. They really want to break that cycle of poverty.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to make a difference and I think that, I think we are on the verge of a very

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: different type of development on the continent of Africa because of that most definitely.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant. So as you've mentioned, you've seen significant changes and positive changes.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess despite that there's always further room for improvement or development. So what

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: more do you believe can be done to further progress the development space on the continent?

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I would definitely say that, I mean, I go back to investment every time. I think the

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: understanding of investment is really important for those who are managing it on the continent.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: There are various partners from the NGO side and private side that are offering opportunities

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and mechanisms for investment. I would say making those opportunities more clearly defined

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and accessible with the knowledge behind them, I think would make a big difference because I can

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: tell you, being a thought leader in this area, I have people reaching out to me all the time

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and saying, look, I have a great idea to start a business in a very rural area.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about a social enterprise, right? In a very rural area, say in East Africa.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I need access to capital, but then I also need to understand the market.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They can get bits and pieces of it, but they have such a difficult time piecing it all together.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of it's done trying to scour the computer, hiring consultants, going to the country,

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: asking a lot of questions. But the truth is so much of that is still informal.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And piecing the market and then the mechanisms for financing to get it off the ground,

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it's for the social enterprises, I would say it is still the number one issue by far.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Truth be told, multilaterals, even the World Bank with the loans going into

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the different governments, they're willing to allow that funding to be used for that purpose.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But they're so complicated that many people do not know how or can't even because of the

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: red tape access them. I would say, I really think there needs to be work done there.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't build wealth without investing. You can't.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah. And so in order to really understand that, you've got to have clarity around it.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I even have a few examples of some kind of local spin-offs from people who I worked with

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: in projects. For instance, like in Uganda, a company called Yield Harvest. Yield Harvest

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: was created. It's a social enterprise. It's in Fort Portal, Uganda for those listening.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Richard Businghe in Uganda worked for the Conservation Farming Initiative.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a U.S. government contract that I managed. We worked very closely with the

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: farmers in northern Uganda. And what he did was he took all of the ideas, the good ideas,

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: at least, that we had and the ones that worked and came up with a social enterprise

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that is self-sustaining. They give agricultural input loans. They actually do delivery

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and the logistics for farmers who do not have an ability to deliver their produced goods.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They provide training throughout the season on improved agricultural farming technologies.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And they do all the market facilitation, which is the most difficult for smallholder farmers who

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: are in rural areas. So they market for farmer produce and they do it to ensure that the market

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is secure and it's always ready. But in order to get started, in order to provide those

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: inputs initially, they needed to access some financing or a grant. And the grants weren't

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: coming because they were a local NGO and they didn't have a track record. So they were looking

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: for the financing and it was so difficult to find, it took quite some time to get off the

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: ground. That shouldn't be the case. I agree. I guess a common theme from our

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation today has been the importance of locally led initiatives. This might be a very

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: obvious question, but what do you believe is the importance of having local organizations

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and people fully involved and integrated into development initiatives on the continent?

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that question. Thank you. Thank you for that question. When people are invested

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: in the development and the change in their communities, it means that it's the right

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: change and it's a change that will continue as such within that community. We talk about the

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: white elephants, right? Where development organizations come in and they leave a tractor

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: or they leave a generator that there's no possible way to find parts for. The old type

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: development, at least I hope it's old by now. But when people have a voice in what they would

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: like to do and they have access to those resources. And when I say resource, it's not

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: just funding. It is also a voice in how it will be done and why it'll be done and how

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: they'll work together. That makes a huge difference. And let me give you an example.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I've recently started working with an organization that only works in Africa.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to share this just because they have such an amazing model. They're called

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Core Africa. So just like kind of Peace Corps, they're Core Africa. Right now,

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: what they do and they're expanding right now, but they have a locally led model. And

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: model is one in which they recruit college graduates from the African country where

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: they're looking to find volunteers. And so say we're in Uganda, they would ask the

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: graduates if they would like to become a volunteer in their own country and they

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: come for two years. They're placed with a stipend by Core Africa with funding to work

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: within a rural community and they go through human centered design and assets based

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: community development. And what that means is they work with the community to understand

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: what the community would like to work on in terms of their needs. Many times it's health,

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it's education, it's water, it's climate mitigation, solar panels to bring electricity

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and energy. It's solving a problem or a challenge that they have. And most of the time

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it's bringing wealth into that community or it's bringing an education or better health.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And they hold competitions then, the volunteer helps them hold competitions to raise money

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: locally. And they do raise money locally to match the grant that comes from Core Africa.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the volunteer mentors the local community to implement it. That is locally

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: led development. That is what people are proud to show. And I believe that that's the type of

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: locally led development we're talking about, but at a much, much larger scale. And the program

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: just blows me away because it's so, so very successful. So you've given a great example of a

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: current or live project. So I guess if we look at it from a different perspective in terms of

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: what would you say is the role of local leadership in sustaining the impact of

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the development projects after the external organizations have finished or left?

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a great question. In the past and I would say even now somewhat, you have

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: development organizations coming in with sometimes $100 million, $350 million umbrella

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations or organization projects. And they're just so big. They're not truly including

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the government. They'll tell the government they have the money and what they're going to

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: do with it, but have they really included the government's voice in how it's invested or

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: utilized? Have they included the local leadership in how the money is invested or utilized?

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Many times it's been surface. So it's been I'll tell you about what we're doing. We're

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: very happy you're doing it, but that's at the point when it stops. And that's what has

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to change. We have to include and listen to the voices of those who will be utilizing

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the resources and who will actually be the bent who will maintain the impact at the end of the

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: day. And so if we are not including those leaders and asking the leaders from the very

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: beginning, how will you help your community maintain the impact after we leave? Then we

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't going to reach sustainability. And so it's kind of the question of what's the exit

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy from the beginning. And if your leader is the authority in the community,

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: then the question is, is it a committee? Is it a certain person that can be hired to do that

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the community? But it has to be asked in the very beginning and say, it's not I'm going to

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: give you 100 solar panels. It's what do you think of this? Is this a solution for X problem?

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And is it or not? And if we were to do this, what would be the response of the community in

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: terms of being able to maintain it? What would you need? And so it's a process and the types

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: of questions and the integration of voices and decision makers from the very beginning

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: in an exit strategy that we all say we try to do. It's true. We do. We try to,

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but we actually have to execute it much better going forward.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess with everything we've discussed today, the ultimate aim is impact. And

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: looking at the work that you've done through the years, what would you say is probably

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the most effective way of measuring the impact that you have during the cycle of the program?

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a great question too. I have always measured it via family income. And

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: the reason is because if you're creating wealth in the community, you can try to measure

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: money coming in, flowing in, money flowing out through say different jobs, number of jobs,

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: number of partnerships between private sector and like say cooperatives or other nonprofits.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But at the end of the day, what is the real goal? The goal is that the life of someone who

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is vulnerable and the community that it's rising, it's getting better. And the only way to

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: really know that more decisions can be made is when I have more money, I have more discretionary

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: income that then I can make decisions about education and health and whatnot.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And normally what I will do is actually take a baseline of how much money is that family

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: making and how much money on average is in the community in which we're working at the beginning

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: before we start working. And then as we move, you take a sample size of how much income is

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: being increased and you look at the cost in the community of what is healthcare on average,

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: what's food costs, education, housing and all of that. And then ensure that they have what I

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: call a dignified income, which is to ensure that they can actually reach a level that if

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: they made the decisions to ensure they have all of it covered in their own context that

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: they would be able to do so. So if we stick to this theme and look at something we've

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: ensured throughout the conversation, which is generating wealth. And as you just mentioned,

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: their family income is a metric that you measure. Are you seeing any trends in the

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_00]: development space in this area that you're excited about right now?

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm definitely excited about the donors really looking to this and trying to enforce

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02]: more of this integration because when I was in the field, I was already seeing

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: incomes increasing as a result of being closer to the communities and bringing them in as

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: stakeholders, as true stakeholders with a voice in the solutions. Because I think that that in

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: itself makes quite a difference in terms of the adoption of new knowledge because they have a say

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: right in what they want to learn, what people want to learn because you're going to spend your

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: time. You don't have a lot of time right when you're taking care of a family, you're trying

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to make sure that you have a livelihood for your family or community and whatnot. And if

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to take another course, you're going to make sure it's something that benefits

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: your family. And if you're going to take out a loan and take that responsibility,

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to make sure it benefits your family. So I was already seeing that that was

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: changing. There was more adoption and uptake. So I am very, very hopeful that the push towards

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_02]: locally led development is going to break through. It's really going to break through

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and show a big difference in raising this income and wealth. I also, before I left the field,

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: was already seeing private sector partners becoming more comfortable partnering with

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: nonprofits in Africa because they were seeing more professionalism within the country itself.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can actually speak to, I mean, as much as like 18 months ago, working with a very large,

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, one billion plus corporation that was, you know, investing into

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: gaps within their supply chain in East Africa and saying, you know, our distributors are

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: top notch and they're all locally hired out of Kenya. They're top notch. There was no worry

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: whatsoever that there would be misappropriation or there wouldn't be an understanding of what

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: needed to be done. And I think that trend is going to grow and grow and grow. And I think

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that once there is a higher trust level between global corporations and really those either

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: satellite offices or real distributors, distributors, or those who are say, you know,

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: collecting coffee, cocoa, coffee, cocoa and the rest, you know, the buyers who are going in and

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: bringing it in. And when you see good quality and that trust is building, it's definitely

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02]: building. And as the trust builds, more wealth will be created locally because there will just

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: be more trust to move money back and forth. So you've touched on this slightly, I guess,

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: looking ahead to the next say five years, how do you see the role of local people and communities

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: advancing global development projects in Africa?

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe that many organizations are actually looking at moving much of their

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: global expertise to the continent. For instance, like Core Africa, their goal is,

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: within the next year and a half to two years, to have almost everyone on the continent itself,

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: even their executives. And that doesn't mean expats. It means Africans giving the vision

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and the mission and thriving, pushing forward on strategies that work. Now,

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't come without a fundraising arm in the US or a fundraising arm in the UK,

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: right? Or in Europe, in the Netherlands. You still need those fundraising arms to help kind of

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: open up and push through some of the access to other partnerships and whatnot that are needed.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you see that true leadership step up and really start taking form of the strategies

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and movements, the ecosystem is going to change. It really is going to change.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I just feel like there's going to be more accountability. When people are from the

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: continent and they're from the countries where they're implementing projects, there is so much

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: more understanding of what can and cannot be done that the hard questions are going to be

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: asked. And if we have people who are true champions and they are empowered by the

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations who are supporting them from outside with just information and leadership,

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_02]: professional support and whatnot, they are going to become the champions on the continent

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to break through some of these barriers that in all honesty, for decades we have not been able

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to break. Very true. So I guess looking closer to home, where do you see yourself in five

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_00]: years' time? What work and impact will you be making on the continent?

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question. Honestly, I cannot wait to get my feet back on the continent.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: The question is how? So I have a few things going on for all your listeners who might be

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: interested. And if you are definitely reach out. So the first is that I am working with a

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: stellar group of founders who are getting a social enterprise called Sacred Seasonal

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and a nonprofit called Circular 100 off the ground in tandem. And what these are to do

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: is it's really upcycling of biomass, especially in the coffee sector, but also looking at other

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: sectors, especially around fruit concentrates. But the idea is to start with coffee cherry

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: because there's such a demand for it and it can, you know, it's a high value commodity

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's something that can be utilized. You know, it's the byproduct of coffee in

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02]: coffee growing zones where livelihoods are quite low for smallholder farmers and their

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02]: communities. And so Sacred Seasonal is really taking that up and looking for a market right

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: now, which has got some amazing potential. And as they're growing that, I'm looking at

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: launching a nonprofit Circular 100, which is going to be the nonprofit side that will

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: in the gaps of that access to finance, the knowledge and the technical assistance and support

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to help the cooperatives and also smallholder farmers, small medium enterprises

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in the communities where we focus on working, especially around the coffee cherry fruit

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: concentrates and even looking at things like banana fiber, paper, and some others. And so

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02]: we're just getting started on that. One real great idea under Circular 100 is we're looking

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: at franchising micromanufacturing locally. So creating a design where we could 10x,

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_02]: at least, income for a farm family and the community, like within a multiplier effect,

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: by putting together a small manufacturing unit that could actually create the coffee cherry

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: concentrate as well as banana fiber, say into braids or carpets. So we're looking

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: at those type of alternative opportunities. So as we're moving forward, if you have interest

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in learning more, definitely investment grants or really technical assistance and learning more

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: about that, please reach out to me. The second thing that I'm doing is I've launched my own

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: business. It's called Nexus Strategy and Growth Partners, LLC. We just went up on LinkedIn

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: this week and just getting started. So basically taking my 25 plus years of experience

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and looking to support social enterprises, corporations, and nonprofits in strategizing

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: how to grow impact, revenue, and putting strategies together where if you have a clear

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: impact you would like to make and we can help you figure out the way forward,

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not only just figuring out your programming and the expertise you need,

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we can actually help you look for the funding to get started setting up some fun development

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as writing the proposals and getting some pitches in front of some different investors

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and potential grantees. So yeah, I'm totally open to that. So you can find me at

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: www.GretchenViegas.net right now or you could find me at my LinkedIn profile

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: under GretchenViegas and definitely book an appointment for a discovery call and we could

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_00]: talk through either one of those. Fantastic, thank you for that Gretchen. Looking forward

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to seeing how both of those initiatives that you're involved in develop and I'm sure we'll be

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: in touch and you'll be keeping me updated on any kind of new developments. Absolutely and

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I'm still going to take you up on some of that advising support. 100%, 100%.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote of the Week.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_00]: As people we often have quotes, mantras, proverbs or affirmations that keep us going when times are

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: challenging or when times are good. Do you have one that you can share with us today?

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I would just say stay passionate about what you believe in.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, it's concise straight to the point. Brilliant, I love that passion is everything.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Once you have passion you have purpose.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Once you have purpose everything else follows. So yes, fantastic Gretchen. Thank you for joining

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: us today on the podcast. It's been amazing to hear your journey, your insight, knowledge,

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: expertise on the development space in Africa and you've also shed light on some extremely

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_00]: important and critical areas with regards to local involvement and ownership in these

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_00]: initiatives. So yeah, it's been a fantastic conversation, one that we've planned for quite

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_00]: a while with conflicting schedules but it's finally arrived so brilliant. It's been a pleasure.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes definitely. Thank you so much for this opportunity.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast. If you've enjoyed

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_00]: this episode please subscribe, share or tell a friend about it. You can also rate review us

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