Investing in Our Own: Why Angel Investing Is the Key to Africans Funding Africa With Sola Osinoiki

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a terrible problem, therefore, if the third world solution and if we can pump from capital into the continent, we'll start seeing these innovative solutions begin to happen

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast with your host Terser Adamu

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Unlocking Africa Podcast where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Today, we have another special guest

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We have Shola Osinoiki who is an author and advisory board member, speaker, founder, growth strategist

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And most importantly, Angel Investing in African startups

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome welcome welcome to the podcast Shola, how are you?

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm good thank you thank you for having me, it's great to be here. Love all the work that you do

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Fantastic, I'm a big fan of your work as well as looking forward to our conversation today

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: As we get started, I was hoping you could introduce yourself and tell us just a bit more about Shola

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, thank you so I'm a British born Nigerian

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Was born in London and then when I was 80 years old my parents took us back to Nigeria

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I studied civil engineering from University of Bifé

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_03]: When I finished my degree, I moved back to the UK followed came to London

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Because my my fiance at the time had moved to University of Manchester for I followed her

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been a British citizen and kind of navigated my way through life from working in security

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: All the way to working in corporate and eventually ending my career recently at working for an aspect of process

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Through that journey, I've worked in consulting worked for big blue chip companies like GSK, Nokia, Ralebanko Scotland

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I enjoyed the whole journey but in the last couple of years I've kind of doubled into Indian investment

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure we'll talk more about that

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of a short history of my life

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: From civil engineering, into security, into consulting, out of consulting, into HR, HR technology

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, and now we are where we are today

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Brilliant, well, fantastic, thank you

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You've definitely got some experience there and a plethora of industries that you've worked in

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're given to say brief overview of your personal and professional experience in journey

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Which has led you to what we're going to be discussing today, your work within investment

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So also when you can start by sharing your journey in terms of how did you get involved or started in the world of investing?

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, thank you

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I said, I worked in consulting and went to work for a company called Deliver Room

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: In the UK for those who know it was a fast growing

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I think Deloite said it grew by 10,000 to send somewhere that in one year

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So it was a fast growing organization

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: It's my first taste of the startup world having worked in a lot of blue-chim companies consulting companies

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And while I was there for me 18 months in I got head-hunted by a company called Naspers Process

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Who were building out a hub in Germany

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And I went out to Germany to live in Berlin for five years

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think while I was at Naspers Process and for those who don't know it

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Naspers Process is recognized for probably one of the biggest most profitable investment in 10 cent

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: They invested about 20,000,000 in 10 cents that is worth about 100 billion today

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So I was working for them and at the time they had about 100 companies around the world

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_03]: 100 companies in about 109 countries

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was heading up the HR technology

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that thing that really struck me first was when we were trying to build to buy eBay

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: We're trying to buy eBay for 9 billion I was born into the deal flow

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I was part of the look at the deal overall

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And it began to make my curiosity enlightened

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And then COVID happened right? So when COVID happened I found myself in a room called Africa's Fund in Africa

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And the room was a 12-hour long, like we were just talking about Africa and how to impact Africa and the fact that

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Money's not going to come into Africa unless we went there to start thinking about investing in Africa

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And I put it that point I haven't really done any real investment in Africa

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I have the odd business deal with a cousin brother friend

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But that really focused my eyes on what is this angel investing, how do I get involved?

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say that started my journey

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So my journey really started in 2020 around June

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It was my introduction to angel investment in Africa

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: In a short period of time you've actually achieved quite a lot

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So let me just go back a few steps in terms of you mentioned you were with Naspers limited

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Who are one of the largest institutional investors

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: How did you experience their shape your approach to investing?

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the way he shaped my approach to investing was like I started studying what Naspers was doing

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So just to give context I was working in the human resource technology side

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So we bought a company or we were working with the company my team did everything from equipment to exit

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Any technology that was required my team did that

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Because of that I was kind of involved in a lot of discussions around companies when we're trying to buy them what hit our technology they have

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So kind of opened my eyes to the whole idea of integrating emerging companies buying companies helping companies

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And once I noticed or learnt was the fact that Naspers had a thesis of

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't invest in a product, we don't invest in technology, we invest in people

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And so actually the thesis, I mean I'm sure there's a lot of other digital agencies that are holding department that does all the reviews and stuff

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So primarily it's about the founder and the potential of the founder, it's like connecting with the founder first

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is where my thesis begin to emerge from that actually yes there could be a product that could be a market that could be

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Also something that you need to look at but the most important thing that I learned what the fact that you have to invest in an individual

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: The potential of an individual to do what he said is going to do and when you look at Naspers history that's kind of been what it's been like

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Or like pay you there was always a person found that they really connected to me and that's why even on the share site internally when Naspers

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: It becomes a bit of a difficult managed situation because we want to buy companies we don't just tell them get rid of your stock

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: We are now in Naspers stock we actually allow them to kind of keep their own identity and evolve other organizations so that that really

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Rapping the investment around the person and knowing that the person that you're investing in or buying

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Have done something up until this point to get to a year for 80 becoming an investor, or after it is the focus right that's what I've brought into my thesis also

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I would say I tend to invest in the person the founder the team rather than just a product or the business

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing. I so as you mentioned one of your areas of focus is investing in the person

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But also know that one of your areas of strength is your understanding of corporate governance and

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: The role that plays in a business setting or business environment. So how would you say this area of expertise or strength influences the work that you do today?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a how much time do we have?

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you know when you think about my journey having spent 25 to almost 28 years in blue ship organizations large organizations

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean I remember presenting when I was at HHBC doing a project there I had 300 stakeholders in the room that I was presenting to for those who don't know

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We have that background a lot of start-ups in particular Africa I young people who are hungry you know on the 30 that's why we see 4335

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they're young they're hungry and they don't have this a concept of governance particularly corporate governance

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_03]: But actually the reality is that no startup can really really scale or even deliver on its promise or less there's a level of governance

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know you dial it down dial it up depending on the size of the organization but corporate governance is an area where I've beginning to see myself really really impact and help organizations like running board meetings

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Making sure that the board is updated on the decisions you're trying to make making sure that you think about the pros and cons of a decision thinking about the legal impacts IP management

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03]: There's quite a lot of companies such a wide space but the thing is when I talk to a founder that I really like

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I realize that they're either very focused on product development or they're very focused on selling their product and I'm like okay, hold a second how you wrap in this right what's your legal framework oh do I need that yeah what's your IP framework do I need that yeah what's your financial governance do I need something so it's that level of helping organizations understand that actually running the business

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Even just like a mom and pop shop that you open down the road that nobody's really interested in but it's really about hey have you done a name verification check have you done the IP check have you validated your your staff making sure that they understand the governance model that you're working with have you made a way to make sure performance management is actually measured within the organization and I think that is one thing I see that is lacking

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Because the truth of the matter that a lot of startups are really focused on product market

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_03]: You know go to market strategy. They focus on all those interesting things, but they do need the back office to be kind of kept in check

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: To ensure that you

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Survive and then you move on to thriving by having the right governance in place. Thank you for sharing

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess from your experience

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: What can be some of the impacts to a startup for not having the right corporate governance in place?

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean it starts from the extreme of litigation right to

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Found a mismatch

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So co-found like founder mismatch because you're not doing the duty of the kind of a line strategy line

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean the number of companies I've been working with recently where

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The co-founders trying to kick out the founder

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_03]: All they haven't registered the product correctly and therefore they're about to go to market

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But they can't because somebody else has a product that's

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_03]: That same name intellectual property rights

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Ensuring that they have the right legal documentation around their cap table, you know this quite a lot of things that

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I all buried within the right governance and it govern an organization correctly

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: For example, there was one company recently. I was talking with and they were getting money from another country

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But they didn't realize that collecting that money meant that they had to register legal entity in that country

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so who now all the intellectual property?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it the new company where the money's coming from or is it the LLC in the US or is it the UK company like on the standing

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: All those things and lay them bare and that's not just getting the lawyer

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really about setting down and understanding the end to end impact of

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Governance on your whole infrastructure. So I mean, I want to say that there's a broad scale

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Or things that can go wrong and sometimes it's simple thing as having the right people work or having the right

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Board resolution that's another one, right trying to open a bank account for a company Nigerian

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And the bank was like with the board resolution that you allow to open if account

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: We didn't have it

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So they couldn't open the account in quick time to get the funding they wanted to get in. I mean in the end it did but that's what I just those little

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03]: dot in the eye across the teeth that just makes you

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: More susceptible to success

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you didn't have it if you didn't have those governance places in place

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's such like keep playing there with regards to receiving funds and understanding the process

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Framework that needs to be in place and your requirements once you kind of

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Accept those funds. So in your view, what will you say on the unique challenges of scaling a start-up when you have taking on

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: External funding

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I wanted to wonder like I like about you just the way you craft your questions

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very very powerful

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: let me step back a little bit right and and the data fact that we don't get said often right so I'm an angel

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So I enjoy investing other people's businesses and helping them get to where they need to get to but the reality is that

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_03]: We need to kind of encourage startups to say

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_03]: The best money to take

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Is nobody else's money by your customer. Yes, so I think we should start from that

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I look

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_03]: What I think I try to work with my startup is to get to revenue generating right just

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Get to revenue generating right

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some startups that spend 18 months

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: ideating and

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: 18 months coming up with an MVP by the time they come out this to late. I mean think about chatGBT

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not too easy at that chatGBT came out and it's changed the whole world

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So imagine a startup that you had that

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe what's gonna do what chatGBT is doing but

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: related to the part enough because 18 months ago

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You could have been ahead, but you're not so I wanted to say that to kind of say look ultimately the best money to take

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Is your customers money to get to revenue as quickly as you can and use

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_03]: In your money or venture money to scale

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Rather than to prove the concepts and actually the market is changing a lot now that people are not really willing to give you money for an idea anymore because

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_03]: That bubble is blessed, right?

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Now

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_03]: The question you asked was what do people need to do to kind of frame themselves and to be ready to take money

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_03]: If you are going that I would have taken money. There's a lot of things that

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been demanded now of people before they can take people's money or money can be given to them

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like what's your road man?

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Where are you going?

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_03]: When are you gonna break even and I think people forget that

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Venture money or angel money is not a grant or alone

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, even if that's just use the grant first not a grant right a grant nobody cares when you do with the money long-term

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I hate with his tanky hopefully it helps you when if you take angel money or you take ventromanine

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody's on your back saying okay, thank you very much for taking the money. Love what you're trying to do

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But when do I get my money back?

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_03]: When do we get to the next step right so if you're pre-seed when do we get to seed stage like they're always gonna be on your back to say hey

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_03]: What's gonna happen next what's gonna happen next because ultimately nobody's running the charity here

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_03]: People are investing money with the hope of a return now again for our listeners

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: We all know that of all the investment you can make on the planet earth

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Angel investment is probably one of the higher riskest one venture or angel because the reality that the failure rate is 90%

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So before somebody's gonna then hand over money in a post-bubble world

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_03]: They want to make sure that you're ready

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_03]: your clear

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_03]: on the journey that you're going on and the money that you're asking for it's gonna have impact and

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_03]: value on what you're trying to do and and that's the beauty of your best in Africa

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the fact that even somebody five thousand dollars could potentially give them three to four months runway

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't know which country they are they better how they set themselves up

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: depend on how they quote unquote waste all money to money properly

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And so to your original question and I've kind of danced around their real big

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to kind of give you a wider context. I think there's a lot of things that startups have to do

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_03]: To prepare themselves to take on angel or venture money because ultimately once you take the money

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: The accountability bill rings louder than it would have if you were just

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Running your business as a revenue-only business

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Because now you have eyes on you the angel wants to make sure you're gonna give me a good return on the investment

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03]: The VCs looking for a 10x out of this opportunity at a minimum and so therefore

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_03]: There will be some pressure on your other startup founder to ensure that you are clear on the trajectory to hit revenue

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And to not just revenue

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But to actually scale that to get to the position where the investment of your angel or

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Your venture person has has an impact and that's why the whole concept of friends and family around is

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Very very powerful particularly in Africa because your friends and family are you're cheering on people?

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you know, I mean they they love you enough to kind of say here here's here

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The thousand dollars let's see what you can build with that and the pressure is kind of reduced

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Even though they ultimately end up on your top table

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But if they reduce pressure because the key word days friends and family and so many founders want to skip that

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Because they want to just go and get the big money

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: But actually sometimes friend and family around could be really helpful to really help you hold the MPP

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Hold the idea and begin to hit revenue rates and I always shoulder in

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Believe sometimes when I'm sitting with a founder who maybe is almost getting to revenue

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm asking me okay how much revenue are you gonna make for your asking for

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: $100,000 when do you think you're gonna make a hundred thousand dollars in revenue

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: before you go in out to ask for a hundred thousand dollars and I think they this element of

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: The silicon valley effect of just acts for a big number

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully you get it and the reality that you don't always get it

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I agree as you mentioned earlier on the best money to take is nobody else's money

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Apart from your customers so when people do take your money how do you describe your investment style?

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So my investment style

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I think when I started off initially I was naive, so I just threw money at things

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_03]: But then I realized that actually

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: What you do need to do because I like I said I'm a best in the person might be a really good person but has zero business sense

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So and I have had that experience

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_03]: When I found that tells you that you know

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Taking your money, but I think I want to take a height as just you know going reflect on my dude. No

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think what I've done over time I've kind of realized that actually

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to give money if I'm not gonna be able to be there to support

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You on your journey because ultimately my money is going into a venture into a business and I want to kind of build on a border and

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Advisor and the supporter and somebody to bounce ideas

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Also what I've developed over time with this idea of I give money with a view of making sure that I can be part of that journey

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: To ensure that there is

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Possibility for that money to grow and what do I mean by that it is really around bringing my expertise to the table

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So you're taking my cash and I think I almost in this mindset now that if you just need my cash

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Then I'm not the person you should be talking to you should probably should go talk to a bank because I

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to give money away

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to give money that's gonna have impacts and to have impacts. I need to ensure that I'm supporting you on that journey

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think part of that came out of spending a year on the on the board on the investment committee board for impact shaker that of Belgium

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And so they approach I'm a shareholder with them and what they do is that they allow other shareholders to add 1.7 on the investment committee

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It's by

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And so you

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: There they run a microphone to where they invest like 10,000 into impact impact

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Projects so impacts startups so people who either do something for the environment or do for me for females or you know

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Just some that has impact so they're not they're just investing the hey how the great start up

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna make lots of money but like what impact are you gonna have on your STG's what impact are you gonna have on the community?

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Well impact are you gonna have on the nation so I think seven with them in the investment committee and review you know

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I would say 200 pitch decks may feel realized that actually

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes what you really need to do is to give money and knowledge and those two things tied together

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really what gives

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Runway to the founders this whole idea of venture building with cash

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_03]: In the expertise of an angel is very very helpful and I think that's that's what I've kind of tried to focus on these days

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Just to say hey, I'm gonna give you money

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm also gonna give you my my expertise and actually sometimes what I try and do is the equity

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I do get from the organization. I split it and say here's half of the equity for the money I've given you

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And he has equity that I would earn if you like by

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Serving with you whether it's coming to a board meeting or being available for you to ask me questions. You go to market strategy

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_03]: you know

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I was overnight I was actually looking at a

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_03]: deck that was coming from a one of my founders who is looking to play raises is series A and

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Just being there to kind of bounce ideas and give commentary

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Code on quote it sounds like is for free, but it's not equity enabled because of the original deal that we had

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So would you say that writing a check is secondary for you?

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Definitely

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Why do I check his secretary for me and I think here's here the revelation I had right

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the personal revelation and realize that actually

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_03]: 90% of founders maybe 95% of founders. I've never written a check-up

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Right so so

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: There is always going to be a mismatch between

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody who's writing a check and somebody who is trying to grow a business

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's further enhanced because a lot of founders

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_03]: look at angels as VCs

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Right

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And I tried to explain to people that the difference between an angel and a VC the VC is investing other people's money

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_03]: An angel if you invest in their money. So it brings a very

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03]: different level of

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Attachment to my investment as a VC hey I mean that's not in the past so other people

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You're probably one of my multiple investments or I'm hoping would you know be fruitful

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So I can be a bit more

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Got through to clear on what I want whereas an angel

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I would almost say 90% again if on less than heritage money

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm spending money that they've earned somehow

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_03]: They've earned it, you know, they've they've they've spent time using their skill to generate funds

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Now they're saying as part of that giving back

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_03]: They want to take some of their hard and cash and invest it in your business

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very different paradigm and I think unfortunately

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_03]: The founder world in Africa has listened too much to Hollywood and to Silicon Valley

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That they think that an angel is this night in Shania Amor that is Robin Hood

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And have stolen money from somewhere or got money from somewhere and I use the word stolen because

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes the way people react to the money you give them

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost as if well, you know, it's felt like a tree somewhere you picked it up and now I'm feeling it to me

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like the work for it

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like no, every angel investor has had to do some kind of work to end that money and therefore

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Attach his value to it because it's money that could have been used doing something else

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_03]: so

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I think that's

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_03]: One of my key things there is a fact that a lot of founders don't understand that difference

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_03]: That actually an angel

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_03]: If almost doing it out of the goodness of their hearts

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't see that lightly because I think ultimately you know as an angel you're looking for a return

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Remember for angel investment

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_03]: On average your return is probably three to five years away

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03]: at best

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But stay six tell-thousands potentially seven years away

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, so

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_03]: This angel is taking a long term bed

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_03]: On on money that if spent a long term to aim and accumulate on you

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And so therefore it should

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_03]: There should be a

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Reciprocal like there should be some sense of

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, thank you for your investment

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I understand where this is coming from

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_03]: How you journey to get here and now you're entrusting this money into me

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that would really create a better dynamic between a founder and an angel

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Then we have on the continent today

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sorry. I got a bit deep in that one but you see I'm saying like I think people need to realize that

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I mean only occurred when I was sitting down thinking to myself actually why do the founders just have this

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Hold on hold disrespectful angel

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's because they're complaining them first to VC and a second they're forgetting that we angel had to earn that money somehow

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Even they inherited it they still had to manage it to be able to invest it

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, so that's that's my if you like my hobby horse

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Is to educate founders to really appreciate

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_03]: the sacrifice and the investment that an angel is making and don't take it for granted until your point

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Therefore for me writing a check is secondary

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_03]: more important is to see you at an individual succeed and skill

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Because if you do that they're gonna benefit me in the short term yes when the long term

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna benefit society

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and that's that's what I got from impact shake

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like look this investment of 10 grand that we would put into this company

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not just so that they can have a good business, but actually if they do what they say they're gonna do

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: there will be an impact on

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Biophilus

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_03]: There'll be an impact on

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know and females

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You know getting equitable pay in the market you know son and and so it kind of changes though the whole

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Spring work of your mind into what you're actually doing and therefore

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Most of the time with impact shakeers we would only invest in companies that truly have an impact and the impact

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't mean you write SDG on your slide

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It means it's more than that it is actually where we can see your product actually benefiting

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: society

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_03]: In such a powerful way brilliant brilliant

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So from the start of that you encounter

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, would you say there's more of a need for capital or there need is more in terms of support with capacity and capability

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Development I think it's a hard question and the reason why I say that is because

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_03]: If you speak to

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Most of those founders they will tell you that their problem is they can't reach money fast enough

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_03]: But the reality that I've discovered

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: That actually sometimes

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_03]: capital is not their biggest issue

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, their biggest issue is

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Product market fit it clear go to market strategy and it clear

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Road map of how they scale their business

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So there is definitely

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_03]: a

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Need for capital particularly on the on the continent

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But what I'm trying to say that the need for capital

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think is

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_03]: overrated because the biggest need

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_03]: is

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Understanding the game you're actually in

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, why do start of spill? They did great book

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: written by a professor out of Harvard who

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you have it anyway from from when the US is called white white start of spill and he

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He was teaching this class for 20 years and he saw that some people will leave his class go out make a unicorn

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Others go out in their field so he spent time and began to really settle in to find out why they start of spill

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things he says is that you know money could be a problem

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You know if you if you if you take other people's money

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It becomes a problem because it's money that you haven't earned and if you have take money that's not air marked

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And so

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a new trend coming out now which VCs and angels I say you say your 100 grand but break it down for us

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: How you're gonna spend the hundred grand don't just say you need a hundred grand like break it down

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So we can actually see how this materializes

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I think there is definitely a need for capital

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But the capital that most startups need

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Is way smaller than they're asking for right and when you ask them they say oh I want to ask now for a big number

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So I have a lot of runway

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like well

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a good way to look at it, but the other way to look at it is

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you spend time and think to yourself what can I do that? I would never need anybody's money

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Right and when you say that to people they're like oh shall I come off it?

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody needs other people's money. I was like yeah

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you think about the start of world in a very more

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Comp-simple way with am from Nigeria

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean the reality is that they're starting from almost every street a woman has a house

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_03]: also kiosk in there

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Stocks it with bread people like you they ask for eggs next time they ask for a gaysia

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And so all of a sudden this simple business just to pay my bills begins to grow into a small super

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Giosk and if you use that brain

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: To kind of look at the start of world to say hey what can you do to kind of

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Move concept that you can actually generate money? I thought we call MPP yes start to bring in some revenue

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Right and then yeah, you might need money

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_03]: To scale that or to speed that up

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But ultimately you want to make sure that your ask is almost equivocal to the money you're gonna generate

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Because you don't want to be a startup that's that's received one million dollars

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But in your lifetime as a startup before you fail you don't return a million dollars you return way less

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why one of my pet pet hate is for anybody to say that deck I'm gonna be the next Uber

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Like do you know the story of Uber? Do you know when they became profitable? Do you know how much money they took?

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Why do you want to be the next Uber just be you so it's your point there is a need for capital

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_03]: hundred percent but I would say in my experience

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: way less capital than the founder is generally asking for

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But they did a bigger needs of making sure that when the capital does come in it has a way of really enabling

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_03]: the founder to do what they're destined to do and I think that's where the mismatch is

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: That is why I definitely tied those two things together. Let's give you some expertise

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's look over your product roadmap

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's look over your go to market strategy to ensure that when you do take this money you can actually

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Make progression and the reality that most startups that really have a good eye and a good mindset

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_03]: They're gonna scale very quickly and they're gonna move very quickly

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_03]: The extent that you're worried around your small investment becomes almost in my needs worry

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Because you're now a minimum investor in the product that's already growing and going very fast

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the startups I'm invested in called me a day was like

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03]: We told you we can scale

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm actually afraid of how fast we are scale it right

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good problem to have that's a good problem to have

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And where a couple of weeks ago they were asking me about whether I would double down then our things

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean they don't want to take any more money because

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: They're revenue they're going to generate would be better for them to just generate revenue rather than give away more equity

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You see I'm saying and that last time you really want to start up to get to

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_03]: To say like they can make a choice of I think somebody said I don't know where I was ahead it said the best time to raise money if when you don't need it

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you've slightly touched on this but I'm going to ask it anyway in terms of

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: From your experience, what's the most common mistake you do see specifically African founders make when they're

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Looking for investment I guess you've touched on in terms of the best time to raise money is when you don't need it

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one of the other mistakes is believing your own press

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So a lot of startups going with the view that you know

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm the only one doing this well

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's check the market actually you're not

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the first thing and if you're not the first person to do this

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03]: What is making you stand out to unique

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say and I'm going to do a lot of generalization now because I don't have proper data

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: But I would say 40 to 50% of startups that come to me

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I just tried to copy somebody else's idea

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, so

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Divi Reeves working

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Those guys that made money

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to try and do a copy cut of it and add something small to make it unique and

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to run with that and then they do this funny slide which is my most hated slide in any pitch deck

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03]: When they're comparing themselves to other people

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And I hate it even more when you've got all the green ticks and then when he else has crosses

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_03]: What are you trying to say right like this slide yourself is become devalued by this this deck for me is devalued by this slide because

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_03]: First of all I ask you a question are you you have a product no you don't but you're ticking the your product is going to do more things than

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: People that already have a product that means they're not really listening to yourself. You know listening to the noise around you

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's the first mistake I see people will make apart from the fact that they raise money

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_03]: To quickly or for the wrong reasons is the fact that they haven't really spent time to really think about

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: What if they unique selling value what are they trying to bring to the market

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_03]: What problem are they solving what level of innovation?

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Are they they're coming about and also they're almost think that because it worked for Uber

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_03]: It's gonna work for me

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Whereas

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The start-up I don't want to mention any start-ups my name, but there's a particular start-up that's in the food delivery

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I have em involved with and

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Their great idea was really around proximity delivery

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Right it and and it's so revolutionary now not totally revolutionary

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Because when I thought that deliver rule I saw that because the CEO at the time said look if you're part of the startup

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to deliver food yourself

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So every member of staff at least

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing you have to go out and do a delivery of some sort, right?

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's really and by been the whole idea of delivery into the culture of the organization

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Rather than it's just like I mean HR don't do any deliveries, but actually everybody at some point

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_03]: In the year months would involve themselves in delivery and the CEO himself

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: When he goes and visits another country the first thing he does is jump on a bicycle and I actually do delivery

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Right so we'll shoot with go to Australia go to Hong Kong go to Germany the first thing he does when he gets to be office

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Doesn't talk to HR doesn't talk to the CEO

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_03]: He just says can I have a bike? I've got my app and he goes down and does it delivery

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Right so if you have that kind of a culture of hey

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody's above delivery here because we're delivery company it kind of build something and therefore

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You build an organization that has

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_03]: The heartbeat of the organization within it because it's led by the founder who's like I'm not too big to deliver food

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Right he's a CEO but actually he would just say you mean he'd be the office sometimes and you'd be like

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just gonna go and do delivery

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Like put it yeah, I'm just gonna go out

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: When we get me a bike he goes out and does a delivery

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to feel what's happening with the what's happening with our customers what's happening with our restaurants what's happening with our riders

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know and that's why you know

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I kind of remember many years 15 years later the first

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: rider that worked with the liberal is still working with them till today

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Right so the whole idea of really embodying

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: What you're trying to deliver and the impact you're trying to make on the community

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: on like if you're trying to alleviate

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You know the need for people to go and pick up the groceries not just because who best do it

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But because you understand you recognize the need in your neighborhood to guess what

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: That passion

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Connected with the good products will give you a business market that would beat

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_03]: The Uber in your community not because you're better but because you're passionate, right?

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know and I just give in an example

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean when I was part of Naspers we all the company called take a lot and you know no matter how much

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a zone

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Try to penetrate the market take a lot help into his market because it was more than just delivering the book to you

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It was really really booked you with distinction with value with care and I think that if what a lot of

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Startup sometimes are missing is that they're looking at the dollar signs and not thinking about the service

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And the product that they're giving to society and putting a bit of energy into that and almost

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I think if I don't do anything if I could serve one or two customers

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I will really have lived my life worth by doing that

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Amen, fantastic words. Thank you for sharing our share

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess I was gonna go back a few steps into a

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Comment that you made earlier about investing in the person yeah, so guess from your approach or how you operate

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you evaluate the leadership team of a start up in a what qualities or experiences?

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Specifically are you looking for?

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I cheat

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: In that let me let me put content that is that I spent you know almost 25 years working in HR

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes and the whole idea around HR is people really and more recently

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_03]: We're changing the name HR human resources to people right so it's now called people operations

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Right on human resource operation and so people partner rather than human resources partner

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And so therefore over time you learn something that

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_03]: The greatest asset of any company and I think you've had this before is the people

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_03]: When you're working people and you work with people you realize that that's not just a

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Fad

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_03]: That's actually true because you need people to reduce the product

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_03]: sell the product

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Talk to the customer

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Joby Turn and one of the things and I don't know why I feel like

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna go back to deliver this story one until I learned there was

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_03]: We treated everybody as a potential customer

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So even if you're an employee and you want to leave us we want to give you a good exit because you know as you walk out the door

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You could potentially be a customer

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And so actually we didn't look at people at just employees of deliverable looked at them as potential customers or

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact the culture was to make sure everybody in the company was a customer

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody had their app and we had a discount and so actually when you're with the company your customer when you leave the company

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_03]: We hope that you continue to be a customer and I say that to say

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Understanding what you're trying to deliver

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And understanding

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Why you're trying to deliver it?

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Makes you the

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_03]: embodiment of the product and so when I say investing people I invest in

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Your story what's your story and AD was starting to tell you health

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Business or in the US came to me. I said what's your story and she told me what I'm trying to sell here

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I got cured from this. I was told to go home. She's a medical doctor. I was told to go home and

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I basically die and as you used functional medicine group therapy

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_03]: to

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_03]: He left self

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Technically and therefore she's like

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not impassioned that this is a method that can help people

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm gonna go out and build a business around it

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that story in itself

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Makes you want to open your wallet to say look

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I read because you're embodying

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_03]: The solution you're trying to to deliver and then I look at you at the founder and how you interact with your co-founders or your team

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're not only the only because the problem sometimes that I found out the only person that is

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Actually about his product and hasn't found a way to invite that into the organization

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, I want to make sure that you yourself you have a story around why you're passionate about the product that you're delivering

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And you tell me stories like I have a micro-finance bank that I'm working with

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean they're really a fintech but to all attempt to purpose their micro-finance bank

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But the guy tells me stories of him look at a market woman in machine and legus and same

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I can actually feed my kids this week because of your adjoin method

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It's transformational like actually you know, you have those stories where you've looked at a market person

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to serve and it makes you embody the vision of where you're trying to do and then

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Me seen that in the team that you have and how do I find that by you know

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Having one or two zoom calls asking them a question why are you doing this?

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you just doing this because it's a job. Are you doing this because you're passionate about it

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I do ask the question like this your only

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Most important thing and some people

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Some people say that if I found that is doing more than one thing then they're not focused

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But actually sometimes if I'm the so focused that

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_03]: To put bread on the table

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_03]: He has to do something else and then he's spending you know the other hours to deliver on on the product and on the promise

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think the evaluation for me is really around hard passion

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Understanding their why and also recognizing that this is a I don't want to say it do or die because that feels extreme

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's almost like I really want to do this and I'm making sure that I can continue to do this and therefore

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I will work security

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I will work from females to make sure that my bills are paid so that I can continue down this path

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's all those things and it's all those

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Elements that really endios you to a founder because you recognize that this is more than just

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_03]: A money-making scheme even though they will make money

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is something that they're actually passionate about. This is the problem

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: They're trying to solve let me give you one story here which you I'm sure you will not hear the story

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_03]: much right so there's a guy in Berlin

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_03]: passionate about social engagement. I started a startup

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I started raising money I invested in it money-sadden escrow he couldn't really hit the

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Minimum amount of money that he needed for that round was almost like a crowdfunding in jr

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And actually still passionate about it but realized like look I've been holding on to other people's money for so long

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And he asked the company that was holding the money in escrow to give the money back to the investors

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Right, did he still need the money yesterday but he was more passionate about what he was trying to do

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Then it was about taking other people's money. He could have come up and said you know

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Well we haven't hit our threshold. I'll just take the money anyway. He didn't do that. He said no

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We said we're gonna hit a minimum. We haven't hit that minimum so I'm gonna give the money back

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And so

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm working with the

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The the

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Commiters hold the money in the escrow and understand the money back and I'm thinking what do you think is gonna happen the next time the guy comes around to raise money

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think I'm gonna do? I'm gonna be a game best right because

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I've got my money back. Yes, there's no gains. There's nothing but he's put in my interest the interest of the investors

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_03]: About his own personal interest and I think that's the character and

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_03]: The

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Examples I like to see in the founders that I'm working with guys who are willing to hustle

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Who are willing to be true who are willing who understand their product well enough

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Another value is gonna bring to the communities that they're serving and I will into almost put their own

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Personal interest on the line to ensure that somebody else

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it benefits and maybe to tie that together

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll do it and we're gonna run out of time soon, but decided to gather and look at my wife who if a startup founder himself

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And have start up with a music and teaching kids music and I actually sometimes I used to say to her that your charity

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not a business because you put the interest of the kids lay above making money and guess what over time?

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You know that charity mindset that putting the kids first mindset has gotten to a place where 15 years later

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_03]: She's making really good money and playing 10 people that's probably educated over 10,000

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_03]: kids

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Around the world now, I'm just in my dream and that really kind of maybe

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Instills in me this whole idea of the fact that if you're really passionate about something even if the money is not coming in

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Even if you're not raising the funds, you want to raise because you're passionate about it guess what you're gonna keep doing it

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna keep doing it. You're gonna keep doing it over time hard work and

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Commitment to your dream with pay off and actually if your reward is not necessarily

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: What money you're gonna make but ultimately the people you're impacted

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_03]: That is transformational it's transformational walking to a restaurant in Lagos and I keep coming up to our table and says hey, excuse me

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_03]: It's you taught me piano

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm now at this school. I'm doing that school and it really had an impact on my life

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You know you feel a tear drop

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Right because that's more than a pound and a dollar that's passion that I've seen my wife invest in and so therefore when I come to founders

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I almost use her the yardstick to say look this woman invested blood sweat and tears and some of my money

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_03]: She get to where she's got to as you have been so impactful because that she had definitely impacted people's lives

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Fantastic thank you for sharing now. I mean you've given us a great

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Insight into what motivates you to focus on

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Directly doing and also focus on the African region

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So with that in mind how do you stay informed and also up to date about development and the start of ecosystem and the investments based in Africa?

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Honestly when you start you realize that there's a lot of information there's

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_03]: There's tech about there's angel investment school. There's a lot of angels in the case that I've been part of

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Hope for example this there's quite like if you really want to find out if you really want to learn

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_03]: There's quite a lot out there and I think what I encourage people to do is don't

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_03]: In the investor isolation

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think if you do that it feels like a lonely long road, but if you join a syndicate

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just you want to write checks individually. It's fine, but join a syndicate

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Getting to a community of people whether the community educate you look at different deals flows

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I would say in the last four years. I probably looked at a thousand pitch decks and it kind of helps you tune your mind

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_03]: To what's out there so keep your you know subscribing to things like tech kaba or any of those other

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Ingeastory

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You just see the things that are happening. I think the other day a company went bust but then tech kaba

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Capital but them right so you can see what's happening in the market and once you understand what's happening in the market

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It helps you be informed right and it also helps you went somebody says oh I'm a startup doing this

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You think to my second hole is a gun

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I see another startup that does that you're doing mental health, but it's not a startup that doesn't

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Mental health and it's that's because I asked my family that do you notice other company?

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you say no, I would I go can they you don't understand your business model right you have to go and really understand what's in the market space

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_03]: What's in the ecosystem so I kind of educate myself one so I can help my founders and also ask them the right questions to say okay

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_03]: You're doing this how is your product different from that company?

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And you really understand a lot more by that. So yeah, so if you're to ask out your question

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really around educating myself joining groups listening and you know

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Just keep informed and reading books around startups and why startups 12 why startups succeed

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_03]: What is angel investing always willing to learn that the guy called and the

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Amir he did the he's got something called the angel investor school. He does some free courses

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean just

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Getting information is very very key and actually the reason I'm on this podcast right it's because

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Someone you know on your car into this stuff, right so me being part of O'Neeca's community has opened up a whole different type of

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Founders and from a Canada from in the continent and you know again it's just educating yourself

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Being willing to learn and being open is is the best way to kind of keep yourself educated

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So you've given great tips in terms of how to keep updated on development and trends

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you look at it from your point of view are the any specific trends that you're seeing in the

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Africa and startup ecosystem that you're particularly excited about

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I already talked about you know charge BT earlier so

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of startups are well

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good and bad trend the bad trend is the fact that along with now all they're doing is saying oh my products

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_03]: AI enabled but they don't remember what I mean, but for those who do know what it means and I really use in blockchain and all these other

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: New technologies. I think what they're trying to what they're trying to is to jump into

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Delivery model that would hasten their delivery

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I am like we talk about in Africa we kind of skipped the whole land line I went straight to mobile

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of founders are recognized and that they can leverage line-line with models AI

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_03]: chatbot to kind of enhance their product to enable them deliver

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Something that maybe a year ago they couldn't have delivered and so those who are really settling down

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And our learning the technology fast are bringing value added services to their startups and therefore

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Also finding a quicker way to resolve and help

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_03]: My parents

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Africans get in and finding ways to deliver solutions using blockchain where actually you can bypass some country

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Country blocking by just using blockchain to make your payment and also enable

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Then productivity across the African continent so I think what I'm really excited about is people who are leverageing the technology

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Around us that you could just use as a play toy or you can use it to enhance your product

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So people who are really doing the due diligence to enhance their products. I'm seeing that as imagine number one

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Number two, I'm beginning to see more and more from the African continent people building truly global products

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_03]: That I'm not just very advanced for Africa but also have a

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_03]: international flavor which means that the product

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Delivery model for the African continent has gone up a notch, you know, whereas before we would say or it doesn't

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Might as Africa just make it basic as possible

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Knowing now that actually Africa is beyond the continent they've diaspora Africa and diaspora Africa

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_03]: It's passionate about Africa so if you make a product that diaspora Africa

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Lempfile will be a good example. I interested in what does it do for the continent it lifts the continent

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think I'm really excited about the fact that founder that trying to use technology to reach beyond the

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_03]: African continent to the Africa in the world and therefore it's funneling back into the continent

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_03]: This higher level of expertise, this higher level of product and I think ultimately, you know

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the it's African continent that benefits from better technology

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we move from current trends and look at the future the future of Africa where do you see

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Africa's angel investing space evolving in the coming years

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I definitely believe that again, I'm going to use that word diaspora

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_03]: The diaspora Africans as a starting point and then Africans on the continent are beginning to realize that

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_03]: We Africa have an opportunity to be a major player in the future of the world

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_03]: All the statistics are saying it that you know

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_03]: The African continent is going to have the youngest population. You're going to have the youngest workforce

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that is beginning to shape a concept of the future of the Africa

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The future is African supporting Africa even though we know the whole world also as an i-e-e Africa

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_03]: China America everybody has a world in i-e-e Africa but I think the angel investment world is as

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Africans are dispensing around the world and any dollar than Canadian dollars and American dollars and pounds and euros

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_03]: There's going to be that funneling back of that money not as

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Even help I think used to be right I can't remember the number but it's billions of dollars that comes

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Back into the continent to help

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But imagine if half of that money was coming into the continent to support businesses and help

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Businesses with great ideas begin to elevate and produce products that solve African problems like you know

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_03]: The guy who's creating water out of air in the ambia or

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Tantanier you know all those kind of problems that you know the third world

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a total of problems. Therefore, neither third world solution and if we can pump some capital into the continent

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll start seeing these innovative solutions begin to happen so I think that the future is very bright

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that there's more people coming into the angel investment space because they can begin to see

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And a lot more people are also willing to go on the longer journey rather than hey I want to double my money

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_03]: overnight they're more looking like hey if I can invest long-term patient capital

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I can begin to see hey my cousin my friend

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_03]: They can produce a product that ultimately is going to benefit the next generation. I think that this generation of people are more aware

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_03]: of the impact that they have to have on the next generation. I think it would cause

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the doubt to turn because there's more disposable income by

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Africans being dispersed. I say Africans. I mean Africans and therefore there's more ability to kind of invest in Africa a lot more and even my

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: My people who are not even interested in engineering investment are now saying hey I just don't want to keep sending money back home

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I start a business for them so they can be self-fulfilling self-generating self-efficient

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's that's going to have a big impact definitely. I agree on the percent

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Have them similar conversations myself

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we look closer to home yeah in terms of where do you see yourself in the next five years what impact

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: What investments will you be making under continent or you still be in the angel investment space or would you have moved on

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Try something different I definitely think I will still be in the angel investment space

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Five years from now hopefully some of those initially investment would be returning to value and I'll be looking to reinvest that in the continent

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think for me personally

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the one thing that I have learned in these four years is Africa is huge

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_03]: a potentially huge and you know even if I took a day to go to a different city in Africa

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: To talk to

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Product owner and founders that's nine of time in five years to do that, right?

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So my excitement is to see how I can potentially explore

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Africa more and

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Come to understand African focused problems and then work with

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: African focused founders who are trying to really really solve real

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: African problems and I think that's what I think it's exciting me the most is really

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_03]: How they begin to you know expand my own or write in I've been that's in a company boss one

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: The best in a company South Africa

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Invest in in companies in Nigeria. I'm looking right now the investment in a company in Kenya

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_03]: As I broaden out get to meet other Africans and kind of build this part African

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Investment model I am excited to be part of that journey of seeing

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Africa rediscover itself and have an impact on itself

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: That is really exciting me so I think five years from now

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You know maybe if we're doing this call I probably will be in Rwanda or time for the air somewhere

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You know helping and investing because what I've realized is that actually when it comes to the continent

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_03]: As I've moved around it and I think I've been to six countries this year

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I just noticed that the problems fundamentally are the same

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You know fundamentally you know you go to maybe a secondary level there are not but at the primary base level

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: They're still the same and helping organizations to have better corporate governance the better

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Captable setup to have better

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Base infrastructure to really do what they could add is something that I'm really really passionate about so I spent a lot of time also coaching founders

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Mentoring them so yeah, I think in the next five years. I'll I'm hoping to be doing

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: exactly that what on a broader bigger scale

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Go out of the week as people we often have quotes mantras African Proverbs or affirmations that keep us going when times are challenging

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Go in times are good. Do you have one that you can share with us today?

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Africans funding Africa is

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: a

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: coach that keeps me

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: focused that you know Africa can do this and so yeah, and that's really a passion of mine

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: African funding Africa so if I'll end with that

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But maybe before we close out

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: What is your passion my passion?

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Turn the tape over to me. Okay, I guess yeah, yeah

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I've always had a passion for highlighting the great work that other people are doing

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, as led me to do things like I used to have a blog back in the day

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell the story of

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Great business leaders innovators investors who are doing great work

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've always had a passion for highlights in the work of orders and

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Had a great interest as well in terms of

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: general business and economics how do we leverage ourselves in terms of

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Africa as a continent how do we move forward what the mechanisms are required so I guess my background

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Professionally outside of the podcasting is international trade and investments have always looked at ways

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: From a trade perspective is something that's quite critical to advance any economy

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: What is required behind that to enable trade its things such as job duration manufacturing agriculture

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So there are some of the areas that aren't passionate for whilst when it comes to the continent

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely about economic development

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Trade job creation empowering people wherever it's youth women just people in general and what is required to enable all of that

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. That's amazing. Yes, I mean

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for doing our show last so yeah, it's very rarely that I get the opportunity to talk about my passion

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's been a pleasure to listen to your

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Jenny your experience your insights your thoughts

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The world of knowledge and experience you've gained in those four years and I guess previously before

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That has also had the impact empowered the way that you've been during in the angel investment space

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for joining us today on the podcast and thank you very conversation. I've fully enjoyed it

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah keep on keep on moving forward and making a change

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you sir

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast if you've enjoyed this episode please subscribe

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Share or tell her friend about you

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You can also rate with viewers in apple podcasts or wherever you download your podcast

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you and see you next week for the unlocking Africa podcast