Increasing Japan-Africa Business Opportunities Through AI & Technology with Bernard Laurendeau

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast.

[00:00:30] In countries like Nigeria, it's really a middle class that needs services such as banking, insurance, the supermarkets that we were talking about. Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential. You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:54] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa Podcast, where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today, we have Bernard Laurendeau, who is founder of Encopa Lab, which is at the forefront of driving successful Japan-Africa investments by leveraging AI and technology.

[00:01:20] Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast, Bernard. How are you? Bernard Laurendeau, Unlocking Africa Podcast I'm very good, Terser. Thanks for having me and I'm very glad to be with you here on this podcast. It's great to have you here. Before we get started, I was hoping you could give us a brief introduction and tell us a bit more about Bernard Laurendeau.

[00:01:40] Sure. So, none of this was prepared. So, let's just imagine me walking into a bar. I usually, I would say that I'm half French, half Ethiopian, now a bit American, but my best half is Japanese. Brilliant.

[00:01:55] So, let me uncover that a bit. So, born and raised in Ethiopia. My father is French from the west part of France, but yeah, I grew up in Ethiopia, went to France for higher education, but then also crossed the ocean to Atlanta, Georgia Tech, and got a couple of degrees there.

[00:02:19] And basically, I spent my whole career in the U.S., mostly in the Bay Area, but pretty much traveling all across the U.S. I think I've been to most of the, at least, relevant states, if we can put it that way. And yeah, I also went to the Middle East and etc.

[00:02:39] So, really working on management consulting from a strategy and operations standpoint and always leveraging technology and digital in general. At the time, you know, there was mostly CRM, ERP, EBI, but there's always been a component of technology.

[00:03:00] And I came back to the continent about five years ago in about 2019, 2020, back to the motherland and specifically to Ethiopia. But I traveled quite a bit in Africa between 2019 and 2020. And that's when I rediscovered or discovered, to be honest, our continent, Africa.

[00:03:24] But now I find myself here in Japan because, you know, as I told you, my best half was my wife, basically, is Japanese. So, yeah, I'm spending a lot of my time here now in Tokyo. Thank you. So you've shared a bit about your background, but I was wondering if we could explore a bit more in terms of what led you specifically to establish NKOPA Lab. Yeah. So let me rewind a little bit.

[00:03:52] So NKOPA and, you know, with the Amharic pronunciation, it's NKOPA. And NKOPA actually in the ancient Giz language, which is almost right, the equivalent of Latin to French. So Giz is the old language that's still used for in religious ceremonies and for biblical purposes. It means basically raw gold. So gold that hasn't been purified.

[00:04:18] And the reason why we launched this movement using that term was because we wanted to send a clear message. At the time, this was launched with the government that, you know, entrepreneurship and the youth and the talent that we have really, not just in Ethiopia, but in Africa in general, is really the gold that we're sitting on. Right. Right. This gold maybe hasn't been seen. Maybe it's under our feet. It hasn't been purified.

[00:04:46] But we do have it. Right. Right. And even the countries that have been blessed, you know, with oil and other natural resources, at the end of the day, their main asset is going to be that talent. Right. Right. And so we launched that movement about four or five years ago in Ethiopia. It included a bunch of things.

[00:05:09] And this was done at the time with the Jobs Creation Commission under the prime minister's office, which then morphed into a ministry now. But there was a lot of things underneath it, including a summit that we keep hosting now every year, the Nkopa Summit. But now coming to the Nkopa Lab, the idea is to obviously, you know, with Nkopa Summit, the idea is to bring the party home.

[00:05:36] So instead of us Africans going to J-Tech, to Viva Tech and so on and so forth, the idea was Nkopa Summit is to bring the party home, to really have people come to, you know, our country, Ethiopia. And maybe in the future, we'll host it also somewhere else. But and really see what's happening on the ground.

[00:05:54] Now, within Nkopa Lab, the idea is almost I wouldn't say the opposite, but the idea is to be in the backyard of those investors coming from abroad and really helping them to understand, experiment, simulate also the potential opportunities that they want to go after. We're not in the business of promoting Africa and its opportunities.

[00:06:20] We're really in the business of helping investors who are looking to expand to Africa, who are in the process of expanding to Africa. So we're in the business of holding their hand and giving them what they need. Right. And there's a tremendous, I think, interest, of course, not just in Japan and many other countries as well, but about Africa and investing in Africa,

[00:06:44] but more so in Japan, because a lot of the corporations here have pretty healthy balance sheets and they are looking for areas of growth. Southeast Asia is something that I wouldn't say is saturated, but to a certain extent, there's something that they've, you know, not just tested the waters, but they've pretty much done a lot of things in those countries. And now they're looking for new areas of growth. Yeah. And so Africa represents that opportunity.

[00:07:14] So you've given us an idea of the mission or the work that you're doing at Encopa Lab. But how would you say you differentiate yourself from other firms that are operating in the Japan, Africa investment space? Great question, right? So let me illustrate my answer with an example from yesterday. So I was at an event yesterday, the Japan, India, Africa business forum,

[00:07:41] and it was a room pretty full, actually, with about, I would say, 200 to 300 people. But guess what? We weren't around the table when I say we fellow Africans, right? And it's not because we weren't invited. I mean, I showed up, right? That is because I think no one from the continent showed up. So India was speaking on our behalf, on behalf of Africa.

[00:08:08] And the Japanese were talking about potential areas of things to do, etc. But again, without Africans at the table. So the first thing we want to do is to show up, right? Because if you don't show up at the table, at the party, at the bar, guess what? You're not going to be in those deals, right? So that's the first thing to anything actually in life, right? Is to show up.

[00:08:37] Remember, our professors back in school used to say the first step to success or whatever you want to do is just show up. And I say this also to my students, you need to show up. So it sounds obvious, but believe me, here in Japan, and as you know, right, Japan is a very homogeneous country. And there's many reasons for that.

[00:09:00] But the very little amount of immigrants, of course, not just from Africa, but even in Southeast Asia, etc. And so that's number one. And I keep on coming to this point, but it's very important because there's a massive conference coming up in August called TICAD, which stands for the Tokyo International Cooperation with Africa. But think of it as like all the world African leaders.

[00:09:27] I mean, coming to Japan and meeting state leaders from high officials in Japan. And then every three years they shift and, you know, so that's the first thing is to show up as obvious as it may seem. Number two is really use modern ways of advising clients.

[00:09:47] You know, gone are the days when you'd spend like 12 weeks or even six months with a client holding their hand on some kind of a transformation, whether it be process oriented or technology oriented. You know, nowadays with the advent of AI, a lot of expenses that we're getting rid of. And the beginning was robotic process automation. I mean, first it was outsourcing, then robotics process automation.

[00:10:12] Now AI is shaving off a lot of these costs, right, that large organizations have. So that's number one in terms of you handhold the client. Number two is even in terms of the expertise. Organizations don't need now a consultant to be there for six months, eight months, not even like 12 weeks. They need one on one type of specific expertise, subject matter expertise, and they want it now. Right. And they'll make a decision by themselves at some point.

[00:10:41] So and as you can see now, there's not just, I would say, boutique firms, but even the large management consulting firms. Right. As you may have seen in the news, there's massive layoffs and their numbers are going down, et cetera. So we want to provide a one on one type of expert advice. Right. On an as needed basis and on a timely basis. Right. And so we have a network of experts.

[00:11:09] And obviously, you know, we want to cover Africa in first go. So this year we're going to cover five countries and then next year a bit more, et cetera, et cetera. And so in those countries, we have some experts in different fields, but definitely we're going to focus on three areas or three sectors, namely financial services, consumer goods and and technology at large. Right. Yeah.

[00:11:36] But but just maybe just to bring it back home is, you know, we want to help our clients really experiment. And that's why we call it the Incopa lab is because we want them to really experiment their expansion to Africa in their backyard. And we want to be that one single throat to choke when they need to choke us.

[00:11:58] Right. And and we want to really provide them with the good amount of data and the quality type of data. Yeah. You touched on something quite interesting in terms of the use of AI is a big part of how you operate. Can you tell us specifically how you're using AI and some digital tools to help these Japanese companies make informed decisions? Yeah, definitely. And by the way, to be very specific, right.

[00:12:26] Right. So in Copa lab, we're I mean, it's an extension of our services that we started about five years ago. We have a firm, Londo and Associates, which is based out of San Francisco. But what we're doing here in Tokyo is also partnering up with some of the alliance partners, Cassie Insights. And then for the intercultural management, we have the culture factor, which has been with us for quite some time now. But now on the question you raised. Right. So let me take you back to yesterday during this event.

[00:12:56] So a lot of information. It was really a good session that was organized by Nikkei. But guess what? A lot of the information that was presented was coming from either the IMF, the World Bank or one of these multilateral organizations. Right. And so a lot of it was macroeconomic indicators at the very high level, at almost the national level and very little. I'm just being polite, actually, by saying you're very limited.

[00:13:22] I think it was zero amount of data was transactional data or consumer data that was very disaggregated and one that a decision maker can use to to say, hey, I'm going to go after this persona in this region for this type of product. Right. And so in an environment where you have almost, I would say, a desert of data,

[00:13:47] what we want to provide here, the client with is really almost, I would say, an oasis of data. And obviously, as you know, in on the continent and of course, you know, from one country to another, it's the first. But there's somewhat of a common thread, right, is that data is not as available as in maybe other developed countries. Right. And in some cases it is available, but you can and really need to have deals.

[00:14:17] With the entities that hold these sets of data and so on and so forth. Right. And a lot of times you need to and this is what our partner does a lot is you have to do your own surveys. So you can't rely on, you know, a series of consultants coming from Washington, D.C. on a quarterly basis. Right. Right. To do some kind of macroeconomic type of survey at the national level.

[00:14:42] So you can't rely on that. You need to do your hardcore survey at the transactional consumer level to really get those sets of data. But then once that happens, right, there's a lot of triangulation that needs to happen. I'll give you an example. Let's pick the example of Ethiopia, for instance. The hierarchy of the administrations is not as consistent from one database to another.

[00:15:10] Right. So maybe in one database, you'll find that, you know, there's six hundred seventy districts on it. And, you know, the the spelling, because the language there is obviously the national language in Ethiopia is not English. So but then when it's transcribed into Roman with Roman letters, you know, that district will be spelled in a specific way in one database. And then in the other one, it will be spelled differently. Right.

[00:15:35] So now the machine learning or AI language will take all of this information, put it into a data lake and provide those insights for you, for the decision maker so that, you know, they don't have to go to one database or another in a sequential basis. This platform now is going to provide you this information in a rationalized manner.

[00:15:58] And the code is learning from itself. And so it's going to, you know, help you with posing also the right questions. Right. Yeah. So how are you specifically using AI and real time data insights to improve the market entry strategies for the clients or companies that you're working with? So, by the way, you know, we're about to launch in about two weeks.

[00:16:23] So we've had already a couple of clients, but the idea is to do a lot more this year. So we're going to see how it pans out. But a lot of this is in the future tense. And so I'll give you a specific case study. Right. That we actually want to hopefully crystallize very soon is you have some countries now that are opening up more and more in terms of retail type of investment.

[00:16:48] Right. So maybe before. And this is, again, like the case of Ethiopia, you had very limited amounts or zero international investors in the retail slash wholesale arena. And now you have some of those investors that are coming. But usually they don't have the data, again, to make decisions on the type of personas they need to go after for specific different product lines.

[00:17:13] Right. So the idea here will be to provide them with the platform, provide them with the real time data in terms of the different personas that they want to go after and tell them, OK, this type of persona may consume this type of product or may not based on their historical type of consumption. Right. And then the platform will also ask, you know, are you maybe interested in this other type of persona?

[00:17:39] Because they might be maybe the right and in the specific region, et cetera. Right. They might be the right type of population to go after. Right. The idea will be. And the reason why, by the way, we're going after financial services, consumer goods and tech is because we believe that the massive opportunities in Africa are really related to the middle class growing. Right. Of course, you know, there's a lot of things happening in terms of infrastructure, logistics, but that's just not our core competency.

[00:18:08] But when you look at the middle class that's growing in countries like Nigeria, in Ghana and of course, Kenya, South Africa, it's it's really a middle class now that wants and needs services such as, you know, banking, such as insurance, such as, you know, the supermarkets that we were talking about earlier.

[00:18:30] Right. And this is where, you know, I think the power of data, the power of technology is really going to help these companies to localize their products, but also localize their approach. Right. You can't just just because you've been operating in Dubai doesn't mean that the way you're going to operate in in maybe Kenya is going to be the same. Right. I guess from the research and the work that you're doing, what role do you see AI playing in mitigating?

[00:19:00] And the risk for specifically Japanese companies looking to invest in Africa? Yeah. And one of the things that also I mentioned in terms of our partnerships is the intercultural management aspect. And, you know, it's usually difficult to in one stroke say, OK, that people from a specific country will have these kinds of attitudes. But for the sake of illustration and for this discussion. Right.

[00:19:25] I think it's fair to say that some countries do not have the sense sensitivity in terms of, you know, the intercultural management aspect of a business deal. Right. Because in some cases they may want to impose actually their own ways of doing things that I'm not going to name the specific countries that I have in mind. Whereas here in Japan, people expect you when you're coming from abroad.

[00:19:53] And this is not just for business deals, but even from a day to day life standpoint, they expect you to do your homework to and understand that etiquette. Again, not just in terms of business etiquette, but even like day to day type of lifestyle. Right. And so because they are aware of this aspect, they also want to do the same and replicate that type of homework when they go to a different country.

[00:20:20] And namely, again, because Africa is not one country in those 54 countries. Right. So they want to do those things to do their homework, but they haven't really had the right partners. So before we even get to the technology, and this is what we want to do also with these clients is, you know, are you armed with the intercultural management tools that you need? Right. Because you can have all the data that you want. You can have all the, you know, business advisory that you need.

[00:20:50] But if you don't approach a business leader, a policymaker or what have you there locally the right way, chances are, you know, it may fly for a while. But then at some point, look, there's so many examples of business deals going down the toilet for that specific reason. So the intercultural management aspect is super important. And again, because the Japanese really understand that we want to really help them with that aspect as well. Right.

[00:21:20] But I think once the some of these things are established and once they know that maybe it's going to be a good. And look, by the way, this cultural aspect is also in terms of yesterday, for instance, they were talking about labor unions in India. Right. And some of these large corporations coming from Japan, they're completely. They don't have the tools to even discuss with labor unions, because guess what? In Japan, I don't think there's even one labor union in Japan. Right.

[00:21:50] And if there is, there might be like a rebel or something. So, you know, for instance, if you go to France, chances are they're not going to get on that train of 8.20 p.m. Because guess what? Maybe there was a strike on that day. Right. Again, I can go on and on about this, but it's very important that the Japanese are sensitive to this. But now let's say you're OK with, OK, approaching that or this country and even the region within that specific country.

[00:22:17] Do you have now the right type of technology to really make you efficient? Right. So the idea now and, you know, I think a lot of the Japanese organizations are depicted by Hollywood and other cultural things as, you know, very risk averse and very conservative. And so it's true in some cases, but it's not always true either.

[00:22:42] You now have not just entrepreneurs, but also organizations maybe within a larger corporation that are very agile and that are ready to make decisions quickly if you arm them with the right type of data. So that is the key aspect is, you know, with the AI and the technology, the idea is to really make a lot of cost savings. Right.

[00:23:06] When approaching and making decisions in terms of the expansion, because, by the way, in some cases, the answer may be do not go there. Yes. You know? Yeah. It could be that maybe one specific country has opportunities in this or that area, but maybe it's just not the right time or maybe it's not just it's just not a right fit because, you know, such and such is providing this service already or maybe they're not providing it, but the population is not trading.

[00:23:34] So, again, there's countless of examples of, again, like investments after a lot of hard work, after a lot of due diligence, they go into a country and guess what? After just a few months, they come back or actually sometimes the saddest part is that they go there, they establish and after a few months, they realize that it's a no go. But then to unwind that is also very costly. Right.

[00:24:01] So it's really like a time and cost saving of, you know, using these technologies. You touched on something quite important or key in terms of the etiquette and cultural understandings. So if you look at this from a Japanese perspective, what are some of the biggest cultural misunderstandings or misconceptions Japanese companies have about the African market?

[00:24:28] Yeah. So and look, by the way, some of the things that I'm going to say next, I think the onus is actually on us Africans. It's not really on the Japanese counterparts. But I think, again, there's a lot of misconceptions out there, starting from, of course, the fact that Africa may be this massive country or, you know, somewhat of a homogeneous geography, not just in terms of the people, but even like in terms of the climate.

[00:24:56] Like, or people might think that all of Africa needs air conditioners. Like, for instance, the other day, there was some presentation by Daikin. Right.

[00:25:16] So I think that's number one is that thinking that Africa is somewhat of a one homogeneous type. of geography, people, et cetera. Right. I think the other misconception.

[00:25:43] And again, it's on us to undo these misconceptions and mistakes and explain better is the whole thinking that that middle class that I was talking about is not actually there. Right. And so people might think that, you know, we're still very poor. And it is the fact for some regions, for some countries. But again, not all countries are at development levels of like maybe 34 years ago. Right.

[00:26:12] Some countries have really grown. And again, you have now that middle class that needs new types of services. Right. And that can afford them because, of course, that's the key. Right. Desire doesn't. It's not just is not sufficient. You need also the purchasing power. Right. So the point is that purchasing power is there. And that leads me now to number three, which is. Which, again, maybe a misconception.

[00:26:39] And maybe, again, it's not just for Japan, but that, you know, products don't need to be localized. That something that you've sold maybe in India or in Thailand is good enough for the African consumer. Right.

[00:26:55] Well, no, maybe an Ethiopian will desire their the design of their soap to be, you know, come starting from the smell or whatever to be in a certain way versus maybe that specific smell in Sudan or South Sudan. Maybe a complete no go. Right. So, again, localizing the products is something that people might think is not necessary.

[00:27:22] But, you know, the African consumer is like any other consumer. Design, you know, is not something that's reserved for Silicon Valley. Design is something for everyone. Right. Very true. Yeah. And and look, for me, maybe the fourth aspect, sir, is because we had a lot and we continue to have a lot of development type of projects on the continent.

[00:27:52] The type of language and messaging coming out of the continent is is very development oriented. Right. And so you'll hear things such as, you know, digital literacy and the fact that we don't have digital literacy on a lot of parts of our continent. Right. And so on and so forth. But but for me, I feel like that was actually a and this is not a misconception.

[00:28:21] This is a mistake. And in some cases and I don't want to go there right now and go down that debate for now. But was that mistake in terms of depicting the digital literacy an honest mistake or was it a desired mistake so that then the development institution can can kind of, quote unquote, sell more services on the continent?

[00:28:43] Right. Because, by the way, all of this aid that is going to go away from the USA, the freezing, because a lot of people are drawing conclusions, Terser, about this saying that I know I'm digressing a bit, but I think it's important. Saying that, oh, you know, oh, the African continent was that dependent on aid. I think that's not the right conclusion of this whole episode here with development and, you know, the way it's been handled worldwide.

[00:29:12] I think we actually have a couple of episodes just discussing that. It is a very intricate and complicated situation. I have my own opinions, which I won't share today. But yeah. Yeah. Just to circle on that and then I'll come back to my fourth point is, you know, a lot of these groups that are being used for agendas, right, of those organizations.

[00:29:39] Anyway, coming back to the four point now, the things such as digital literacy for a organization now coming from abroad, it might look for them as though, OK, now they have to teach all of these poor African consumers. We don't know how to use digital. We don't know how to use digital, but it's not true.

[00:29:58] As a matter of fact, a Kenyan man of like 19 years old who maybe didn't even, you know, finish high school might understand a Android device much quicker, much faster than someone in that same country who has a PhD. Right. And it's because they have the digital literacy. They are thirsty for knowledge. They're thirsty for learning new things. Right.

[00:30:22] So I think there's also a lot of those things that have been almost forced onto foreigners because a lot of the discussions, a lot of the language that's been used on the continent was development oriented. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I do agree with quite a lot of that. I was hoping we can go back to something that you mentioned. You detailed the work that you're doing to remove some of those misconceptions which do cause obvious barriers.

[00:30:49] But what would you say are some of the major barriers actually preventing more Japanese companies from entering the African market? Yeah. So do you know Tijan Thiam? Because he's one, you know, some people who have the Philippines, but I'm a big fan of Tijan Thiam. And I think he represents really the brain power that can come out of our continent. Anyway, great guy.

[00:31:14] And he says it multiple times, but he says, you know, there's a lot of opportunities on the African continent, but very little amount of advisory firms, investment banking firms. Right. And so on and so forth that can handhold these investors, these clients, these entrepreneurs and help them come on the continent. Right.

[00:31:38] I mean, if you want to invest, let's say, in France, I was walking down the street the other day in Tokyo and I was looking from afar and I see a red and a blue and obviously white in between. I'm like, wait, that must be like something related to France. And guess what? It was something in the middle of Tokyo, France promoting. And this is coming from the French government promoting to invest in Africa. And I think in France, obviously not in Africa.

[00:32:04] And they were saying, I mean, the motto was, I think, choose France. So I forgot. But so so it's not just, you know, the government promoting themselves, for instance, in the case of France. But of course, it's the army of consultants, of investment bankers who are ready to handhold a Japanese client and help them come onto the French soil. But look at Ethiopia, for instance, it's crickets.

[00:32:32] Look at, I'm sorry, even maybe Kenya, even Nigeria, those big four countries. Where were they, for instance, yesterday? Right. And where are they when there are? And I'm talking specifically from the private sector standpoint, because in terms of multilateral type of conversations, I mean, you know, there's so many speeches, so many MOUs being signed. But usually those don't really come down to the ground, right?

[00:32:57] I mean, we've for so many years now, we've been talking about the AFCTA and the PAPS and, you know, African trade. But when will this come down to the, you know, on like sea level? So, but from a private sector standpoint, I think to answer your question, sir, there's very little amount of, again, handholding happening to help people cross that bridge, right? So that's a major barrier. I agree.

[00:33:25] So with that in mind, what ways can African countries better position themselves to attract Japanese companies or investment? Yeah, I mean, you know, going back to, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but look, I think first they need to show up, right? They need to show up to those conversations. And if it means that, you know, they somewhat need to go down to the embassy and maybe they're not getting a visa, let the people know that you're not getting that visa.

[00:33:54] But the point is, you need to show up, right? Then I think we need to do also much more PR. But again, those people sometimes that are running some of those communications and everything are not even like, I think Rwanda does a good job at PRing there in the opportunities in their country. But most of the countries, to be honest, the PR is really out of touch. And it's not.

[00:34:21] So I would say that's number two is definitely show up. Like, take, for instance, Costa Rica. This is like the Switzerland of West, I mean, of Central America, very small country, right? But man, they're punching way above their weight. And when you look at their investments, whatever it's called, I think it was called Cinde, is basically like the investment promotion arm, right? I mean, if you want to talk to the director general there, guess what?

[00:34:49] Most of the time he's not in San Jose, in the capital city of Costa Rica, because guess what? He's doing his job of traveling across the, you know, around the world. When you look at their promotional content is really, really on point. They really sell themselves very well. And they're very well organized in terms of enabling then the private entities that are on the ground. And guess what? Costa Rica has been has been really attracting a lot of investments, not just from the U.S.

[00:35:17] because it's next door, but even from Europe, et cetera, right? They have these massive free economic zones. But look at us in Ethiopia, for instance. We have a bunch of free trade zones. And it's almost like built it and they will come and they never came. But why? Because we didn't do the PR properly because we're not connecting the dots, right? So I would say related to PR is really also then connecting the dots with the private sector.

[00:35:43] I think we need to do a better job at enabling also the private sector in those countries. I agree. So, I mean, in order to promote or market effectively, you need to be quite specific in terms of the value and what it is that you're actually offering. So are there specific industries or regions on the continent that you're seeing great opportunities for Japanese investments? Yeah.

[00:36:13] So definitely, I mean, when an investor looks at Africa, they will definitely look at where are the opportunities and then next comes the risks, right? And so when you look at the opportunities, again, you kind of need to look at it from a demographic standpoint, especially because, you know, for Japan, they look at it really from a, they have a shrinking population and they're a little bit worried or very worried that, you know, you're not going to have that pocket of growth anymore

[00:36:42] because, you know, it's slowly diminishing. Your population is diminishing and you need new areas of growth to sustain your balance sheet, right? So when you go from the West to the East on the African continent, the obvious countries for that are, you know, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Ghana, but Ghana, you know, it's fine. They have other things for going for themselves, but, you know, it's not that big of the population.

[00:37:12] RDC, but I'll come back to it because now, you know, it's such a massive country, but it's very sad, but we have, there's conflicts on the West side, I'm sorry, on the East side, as you know, but I mean, from Goma to Kinshasa is like this massive, massive, it's almost, I mean, RDC is itself in itself a continent, right? So, but RDC, if you were to focus on some of those very stable regions, there's a lot of opportunities, right? Without those risks.

[00:37:40] And then, of course, you know, South Africa and Ethiopia and Kenya, right? So, so these are the, the countries where you have massive growth of the middle class. Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt have somewhat of a stable type of demographic. They've kind of stabilized.

[00:38:06] And so because they kind of come across as, pardon my language here, but the backyard of either France or in some cases, the UK or others, maybe for Japanese, it may be, and even from an intercultural management standpoint, it might be a bit difficult, but definitely also some opportunities there, right? But, but in terms of much more aggressive type of growth is the first categories of countries that I listed out.

[00:38:34] Now, there's obviously some risks. So I already kind of touched upon some of those things in RDC, but you have also some of those risks in Ethiopia. But again, if you concentrate on Addis Ababa, maybe you don't have those risks, but now going into the regions, at least today is a bit challenging, right? And same thing, maybe in Nigeria, if you stay along the coast and, you know, that's maybe something that you're much more familiar with, but so maybe I'll just stop by saying that.

[00:39:03] But so, so, but that's one thing, you know, we want also our Japanese investors to really be aware of is that some of these countries, you can't just use the data coming out of the, you know, US embassy or French embassy or pick your favorite embassy from the Western world, right?

[00:39:25] And take a look at their map and their travel advisory notices and say, oh, can't go there, too risky. Or you can't just pick up a rating from your favorite rating agency and say, oh, can't go there, whatever. Because even also those rating agencies, sometimes they're not really looking at not just the risks, but even sometimes the loans that are being paid off, et cetera, they don't look at the intricacies, right?

[00:39:54] And it's not, again, again, sometimes the onus is also on those governments that are not explaining properly to those rating agencies, maybe because they don't have a contact. It's as simple as that, by the way, sometimes, huh? It's just that they don't have a contact at that rating agency. So John or Paul from that rating agency is going to write whatever they want, because maybe the email that they're sending is bouncing and, you know, they're not getting anything in return. So we want them to dig a little bit deeper and not stay at the shallow level

[00:40:22] and understand that maybe a country actually could be a United States of Congo or a United States of Ethiopia or a United States of Kenya and so on and so forth. And you see where I'm going with this is that you kind of look at it, look at the map, just like when you look at the map of the U.S., right? Florida and California, two really different states, two really different dynamics, right? The way you'd approach entertainment, for instance, in Idaho versus Florida, completely different, right?

[00:40:52] Or in Atlanta versus maybe Hollywood, very different, right? So we want them also to be conscious of those localization needs, right? So maybe let me pause there. Very interesting points. You know, as we've discussed during our conversation, advice and support is key to accessing these opportunities in different markets and different sectors.

[00:41:17] But for you, what advice would you give to Japanese businesses that are considering entering the African markets but are potentially a bit hesitant? Yeah. So I think, you know, there's this old way of always saying, you know, you need to be patient or patient capital. And then you need to look at it from a long-term standpoint. So the message is kind of to say, you know, just chill, relax, be patient.

[00:41:47] And, you know, sometimes investors don't want to relax. They just want to know if things are going to pan out. So just saying relax, look at it from a long-term standpoint is not going to cut it, right? So for us, the idea is to really be assertive about the opportunity. So that's why I think the use of technology is very important. It's because usually, and of course, you know, technology is not a silver bullet,

[00:42:17] but it can save you a lot of money. It can save you a lot of trouble. But once you understand and decide that this is an opportunity, then you can go fast and actually expand with the right stakeholders in the network, et cetera. And then equally, when that data, when that intercultural management workshop,

[00:42:44] and so on and so forth, is telling you maybe it's not the right fit. Well, then do not waste your time. So the idea either way, right, whether you need to go it fast or go slow or actually stop altogether, the idea is to be super confident, right? So we want them to be confident. We don't want to give them this, oh, you need to look at it from a long term because that's, even that messaging is like very worrying, right?

[00:43:14] Terser, like if you're about to invest in like, I don't know, like entertainment in Nigeria and I tell you, ah, but, you need to look at it in the long term and you're like, am I going to die? Like before I, it's not like, even if you're a corporation, right? Like, you know, it's not the right messaging. So, so for us, the idea is we, we're going to make you confident, right? About your decision, whether it's a go or no go, right?

[00:43:40] And we're going to arm you with the right tools, with the right weapons to actually go in there and make it happen or actually pivot and so on and so forth, right? So that's our messaging is don't be hesitant. Don't be worried about some of these opportunities. We can help you be confident about whatever your decision is. In order for you to be confident with the decisions that you make,

[00:44:05] you need to have your feet on the ground, eyes on the street to see what's going about and seeing what the new trends and activities or initiatives are that are taking place. So are there any new trends or initiatives that you're currently seeing that are strengthening that Japan-Africa business relationship? Yeah, so I think, and by the way, I think there's also a lot to learn, right? From our fellow Japanese.

[00:44:33] So that's why also for us, we thought that it was important to learn something in Tokyo is because we look at it not just purely from, you know, a investment standpoint. It's also a transfer of knowledge standpoint, right? When you look at the amount of investment coming out of Japan compared to China, maybe others like Turkey, etc.

[00:45:01] It's small, but it's been consistent. I was telling you about the TCAT conference. It's been consistent for the last 30 years. They don't make that much noise, but it's been consistently happening every three years. And so when you look at also the amount of, and the type of investment, not the amount actually, the type of investment, it's also been consistent in the way that there is an element of transfer knowledge,

[00:45:30] technology transfer, and so on and so forth, right? Right. So for us, when we look at that, and when we also want, when we look at where we want our countries to be in the next 20 years, that's why I was telling you that we're starting first with financial services, is we believe that, you know, a strong financial services sector in those countries is going to be super important. And guess what? That's what the Japanese did 150 years ago,

[00:45:59] when they realized after, you know, 300 years of closed off economy, like literally their borders were shut down, right? For about 200, 300 years. When they opened them up, they realized that, man, we're kind of behind actually on a lot of things, but they decided to create a very strong financial services sector, starting by, you know, with the stock market and so on and so forth. And so, and that's been the backbone of the economy from the very beginning, right?

[00:46:28] And some of it, by the way, came from my brothers in France, right? They, they, because some of us thought that capitalism in the, in Japan came from the US, but most of it actually came from France in the beginning. It wasn't just the croissant and the pâtisserie. It was a lot of the capitalism lessons also actually that the, the, the whiskey came from the Scottish, you know, did you know about the story by the way of Santori? Beautiful story. No, no. His gentleman went to Scotland from Japan,

[00:46:58] married the lady, but you know, he, he didn't go there to marry a lady. He went there to learn how to actually distill whiskey. And so, and guess what? Santori now, as you know, is this massive conglomerate who has been eating everything that's been passing under its, under its feet. So, but, but yeah, so Japan, I think has this beautiful way of investing, but also of transferring knowledge and technology.

[00:47:26] And so that's why the financial services sector is something that I believe something that going to be very useful for us in countries like Ethiopia, Kenya, you name it. Right. Right. And it's not just, not just banking, but you know, payments and so on and so forth. So I think there's a lot of opportunities there because again, the middle class is growing and then the consumer goods.

[00:47:51] Again, there's a bunch of different conglomerates in Japan that are providing very sophisticated, like for instance, I'll give you an example in Ethiopia. We say that we have supermarkets, but we still don't have supermarkets in Ethiopia because a supermarket means means that you have a certain amount of supply chain, that you have a certain amount of contract manufacturers, vendors, et cetera, et cetera. And we don't have that level of sophistication.

[00:48:16] And a lot of these corporations in Japan have been not just active around the world, but, but, um, uh, I've been actually, uh, I've been one of the most sophisticated ways of, you know, for instance, the story of seven 11, which is now under seven and nine holdings is a Japanese entity. And, uh, their chapters here in Japan are much more sophisticated than that in the U S the seven 11s, you know, in terms of how they manage their supply chain, et cetera.

[00:48:47] So, so I think that also is going to be, could be a massive opportunity, uh, also in terms of learning for, for our African countries because we have broken supply chains and sometimes we're barking at the wrong tree. I was talking about, right. The intra African trade. And we always say, Oh, you know, we need to, we need to do more intra African trade, but, but sometimes we forget to really take a step back and really look at, have a hardcore look at the geography, uh, of,

[00:49:16] of the continent, you know, we just haven't been blessed by rivers that are flowing nicely in the right direction. Uh, you know, uh, from one country to another, it's just not there. When you look at, for instance, the coastline between a hub or pick your favorite city in Morocco to the Cape, uh, in, uh, to Cape town in South Africa, you know, you pretty much have the same amount of usable shoreline then between,

[00:49:44] I think Washington DC to New York or some, some ridiculous distance like that. Right. And so we just haven't been blessed with, uh, some of those, uh, you know, things such as river shoreline, et cetera, that are amenable for intra African trade. Right. And, but maybe within those specific regions, maybe for instance, if you look at our DC within Katanga, maybe you can, you can, uh, uh, deploy much better, uh,

[00:50:12] lines of logistics of supply chain, et cetera. Maybe within the region of Oromia in Ethiopia, maybe you can deploy better, right? But maybe it's much more difficult to do something between Ethiopia and Rwanda. And so maybe you kind of need to forget about that. But if you become very efficient then in that region of Oromia, maybe you can really build already a small economy there. Right. So I think that opportunity also of learning from a supply chain, from a logistics standpoint, again,

[00:50:39] using logistics in the area of consumer goods, it could be a massive learning opportunity. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. So if we go from some of the trends to, I guess, the future, how do you see Japan, Africa investments evolving over the next five to 10 years? So we're, we're anxiously. So, you know, definitely I don't have a crystal ball, so it's difficult to say.

[00:51:06] It looks like, you know, the, when you look at the, the FDI, which is a good proxy for the total, because sometimes, you know, it doesn't cover everything, but I think it's a good proxy for the total investment coming into the continent. So when you look at it from a Japan standpoint, it's been growing, but maybe not as much as it could. Right. Whereas for instance, countries like India and Turkey,

[00:51:34] China recently has been a bit stable. I think it peaked in 2010. And starting 2010, it's been somewhat stable or sometimes actually a bit in decline. So, but when you look at it from a Japan standpoint, yeah, it's been growing, but at levels that are not super massive. Right. And the reason for that is again, not a lack of appetite, but a lack of knowing how to go about it. Right.

[00:52:04] Because there's a bunch of events and, and, and, you know, the, when you go to the ministry of foreign affairs, they have many types of different, you know, programs, programs projects around Africa and so on and so forth. So I, I would think that the next few years, maybe it's going to be not a massive growth. It's going to grow, but again, continue to grow timidly,

[00:52:28] but hopefully as some of our countries do a bit of their homework in terms of promotion, PR, et cetera, we should see that number go up for two reasons. Number one, I think the investments, and this is something that we were, that was being discussed at the event yesterday, Japan, India, Africa,

[00:52:52] the amount of investment going from Japan to India has been increasing quite a lot. And Japan is also using India almost as a platform to go into Africa. For instance, I'll give you an example. Suzuki that now has many, many different plants in India. They're building Japanese products made in India.

[00:53:17] And now those localized products for, I mean, products localized for India, in some cases, that same localization. And I was just telling you that we shouldn't generalize, but interestingly enough, some of those sometimes products are also something that can be reused in some parts of Africa, right? So they're using that platform to sell into Africa. So when you look at that growth, we're hoping to see that growth,

[00:53:47] that growth from Japan to India, we're hoping to see the growth then reciprocates into Africa because now these companies that have grown quite a lot in India, they're looking for their next areas of growth and they're going into now West Africa and so on and so forth, right? And I've mentioned some examples like Suzuki, Daikin, and some of those Tsugo Sushou, like the Toyota of the world, et cetera.

[00:54:16] Not Toyota, the car, but Toyota, Tsushou, et cetera, et cetera. So a lot of those trading companies are going to go into the African continent through India. So that's also an interesting trend. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So looking closer to home, where do you see Encopa Lab? What work will you be doing in the next five to 10 years to increase Japan-Africa investments?

[00:54:43] Yeah, so we're going to choose very carefully the countries that we want to cover because, as I said in the beginning at the outset, the idea is not to cover all of Africa because we just couldn't. So we want to be careful. So in the beginning, we're covering pretty much those big fours because we have a good network in there. So Nigeria, Kenya, Rwanda, South Africa, Egypt. So that's number one is we want to choose our countries very carefully

[00:55:13] based on the profiles of opportunities, risks, et cetera, because in some cases, you know, I'm not going to name specific countries, but it doesn't really make sense to really go in there because they just have, you know, it's an uphill battle just in terms of even of the basics, right? So that's number one in terms of the countries. Number two is, you know, we want to continue to grow the number of... Because for us also, the name of the game is to not just

[00:55:43] on the demand side of the house in terms of business development to find clients in Japan, but the idea is also to continue to build networks of experts in those countries, right? And by the way, doing that for us, the idea is also to contribute to the reverse brain drain, right? As you know, we say that the diaspora now is the largest FDI for Africa.

[00:56:10] Well, it's something that we should be proud of, but at the same time, you know, I'm like, you know, we kind of need also to use those brains that are outside. It doesn't mean that you need to physically go to your home country, whatever, like you can do things remotely these days. There's a lot of ways to contribute, but that expertise is also going to be needed. So someone could be based, let's say, in DC, but maybe they know the region of Katanga very well,

[00:56:39] or maybe they know a certain region in Nigeria very well or in Ghana and so on and so forth, right? And in a specific sector. But again, they might be sitting in London or Washington DC, right? So for us, that's also the other thing that we want to do in the next few years is to really build a strong network of subject matter experts who know what they're doing, not just because they have titles, because also we're wasting sometimes our time in some of our countries with titles, et cetera. And so you have people who claim they have expertise,

[00:57:09] but they don't. And so we need to separate the wheat from the chaff. So, and for us, the idea is also to replicate that model with the Ncopa Lab, I mean, hopefully in the US next year. So when you look at our maturity model, we have 2025 as our launch for Ncopa Lab Japan, but in 2026, we want to also almost go back home because for London Associates, our home is San Francisco.

[00:57:37] And we want to launch also, and we're forcing next year as I think a massive investment coming from the US into Africa. I think it's going to take some time for all of this to stabilize in terms of aid freezing, blah, blah, blah. But I think it's all going to translate into massive investments. And so we need to raise our hands when that happens, right? So that's how we foresee it. Brilliant.

[00:58:07] Thank you for sharing that. One last question before we go. Sure. Quote of the week. As people, we often have quotes, mantras, proverbs, affirmations that keep us going when times are challenging or when times are good. Do you have one that you can share with us today? That's a good one, right? So I'm not the biggest bookworm, by the way, on this planet Earth. And even when I was a student, I used to read books,

[00:58:34] not from A to Z, but I just pick the summary. Especially in the French system, you know, they tell us to read long books. And I'm like, are you joking? You want me to read like, you know, the three musketeers, like the three books at 756 pages? Like I have that much time in my life? So I wasn't the biggest bookworm, but I remember though this commercial when I was growing up

[00:59:04] in Ethiopia, right? There was this, you know, we had one channel back then going from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. and then in between it was really like a black and white type of sound. It was nothing on basically. But there was this commercial that I really liked for total, you know, energies. And now it's total energies. Back then it was total. And basically the song was going like, when the going gets tough, the tough gets going, right?

[00:59:33] That's something that stayed in my brain. And, you know, I think a lot of our African countries sometimes where we feel like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. But, and we feel like sometimes also the whole game is skewed or, you know, we're just not going to come out of it. But I think we just need to really work hard. Again, Japan is a great example for that.

[01:00:02] 150 years ago, I mean, if you look at pictures of Tokyo, even forget about 150 years ago, just 50 years ago, it looks like, I don't know, like the outskirts of Addis Ababa, like 20, 30 years ago. So we need to really, I think, really work hard, present ourselves maybe better in terms of the PR, blah, blah, that I was talking about. But we need to be tough, you know?

[01:00:32] And we need to know what we want from our youth, from our talent, that's abroad, et cetera, et cetera. And, yeah, we need to be strong. And when the going gets tough, the tough, because the going is going to get tough now, especially this year. Yes, it definitely will. But fantastic. But in a way, it's better for us. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Bernard. We've come to the end of today's conversation. It's been a great conversation,

[01:01:01] very informative, very interesting. It's great to hear your perspective on Japan, Africa, business relations, investment, and also the role of technology and AI to kind of improve the ability for people to access those opportunities on the continent. So thank you for sharing your experience and your knowledge with us today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Well, the pleasure is all mine, Terser,

[01:01:29] and hopefully we'll get together again very soon to celebrate and put Africa on the map in whatever shape that's needed. Brilliant. Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. And we will be in touch soon. Very good. Have a good one, Terser. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, or tell a friend about it.

[01:01:58] You can also rate, review us in Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast. Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.