How Scotland and Africa Can Do More Business Together: Challenges & Opportunities with Frazer Lang

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[00:00:55] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa Podcast, where we find people who are doing amazing things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today, we have Frazer Lang, who is CEO at Scottish Africa Business Association, which is an organization that helps deliver tangible commercial outputs, which are beneficial to African countries, Scottish companies and institutions by making it easier for both sides to execute opportunities.

[00:01:24] Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast, Frazer. How are you? I'm very well, thank you, from a very cold Edinburgh. Thanks very much for having me. No problem. I'm calling from very cold Manchester. So... Fantastic. Obviously, it's great to have you on the podcast and looking forward to the conversation. Obviously, we've been in contact for quite a while. So I'm quite familiar with the work that Scottish Africa Business Association is doing. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

[00:01:55] Before we get started, I was hoping you can give us a introduction into who Frazer Lang is. Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I'm based up in Edinburgh. I'm Scottish by birth, but as you can probably tell from the accent, grew up in England when my parents moved down when I was quite young. But back up here now, obviously. Yeah, I mean, my career, I guess, has been... It was varied up until the point where I visited Africa.

[00:02:22] And I just remember the first time I went and I'd travelled quite a lot around the world before, but hadn't been to the continent before, to African continent before. And I just remember the airplane doors opening and I just immediately thought, wow, this is different. I love this. And, you know, you go to Asia, you go to South America and it's different, but it somehow feels a bit the same as well. But when I just remember that very first time and still did, I've got goosebumps thinking about it, just thinking, I love this. This is fantastic.

[00:02:51] And from that point on, really, my objective was to work with Africa in Africa, just be a part of what was going on there and changed my career. I ended up working for an organisation in London, which worked very closely with a lot of governments in Africa. And then from that, Saba. So that's kind of a bit of my background of how I got into it. So would you say that first visit to Africa was the inspiration behind Saba?

[00:03:20] No, I think the first visit was just falling in love with the continent. And just, you know, after that, there was a few more trips, very varied, different places. And then it was when I got back, I think probably after my third or fourth trip, I suddenly thought this is an area I want to work in, you know, however it is, whether it's in development, whether it's in commerce, whether whatever it is, I want to be involved. And it was just at that point being involved in Africa.

[00:03:48] And the position that I got was it was an organisation in London. We work very closely with the foreign office and they would task us with bringing in governments from Africa to London. And we'd normally bring in president, prime minister, five, six cabinet ministers, and we'd organise their bilateral meetings with UK government. And then we'd introduce some potential investors. And then we usually put on a big investor event, big showcase while they were in town.

[00:04:12] But after three or four years of doing that, every government that was coming to London was saying to me or us as an organisation, look, it's great being in London, but actually can you get us outside London? Because a lot of the expertise we want to speak to isn't necessarily here. And that was in sectors like agriculture, education, skills training at the time, oil and gas, renewables was just starting. And the real hubs of expertise were not in London.

[00:04:41] And the company I was with, you know, they were a London based company, didn't really have an interest in that. And I looked into it and there wasn't really a mechanism coming from UK government either to get these delegates and delegations out to the rest of the country. So that's when the idea came. Did a bit of research, realised that, you know, a lot of what's going on in Scotland, a lot of what we're good at, maps onto a lot of priority sectors across a lot of Africa.

[00:05:07] But there wasn't much trade investment, knowledge sharing really going on between Scotland and Africa. So that was when the idea first came. And I took the plunge from that, really. So you've slightly touched on this in terms of the previous role of delegates coming to London and wanting to look outside of the capital. But how does cyber differentiate itself from other trade organisations that are working with the continent?

[00:05:35] I think the main difference is we are the only Africa focused trade organisation in Scotland. So this really has been promoting Scotland as a destination. You know, we shortly after we started the original organisation, which then morphed into Saba, you know, we put on an event in Edinburgh called the African Heads of Mission. And we invited up 18 of the African ambassadors from London and High Commissioners to come up for a week and meet companies, etc.

[00:06:00] And what really came out of that was that of those 18 ambassadors, all of them had Scotland as part of their remit, but only two of them had ever been to Scotland. Oh. So there wasn't a great understanding of what was going on in Scotland. But the flip side of that is Scottish government have pretty limited resources in terms of trade outreach, etc. And Africa isn't one of their priority countries. They tend to look at Europe and South Asia and the States as well. That's where they put their money, basically.

[00:06:31] And UK government is meant to take up the slack for that. But actually, a lot of the teams in Africa from FCDO and DBT, through no fault of anyone really, just don't know about what's happening in Scotland. So I guess that's the gap that we were trying to fill.

[00:06:49] I think what we try to do is to the differentiator as well, I think, is, you know, if, for instance, a minister or a delegation comes into London, they'd probably expect to be sat in a hall full of four or 500 people looking to them. And what we say to any delegations coming to Scotland, particularly government delegations is, look, you're not going to get that. That's not what happens here. But what you will get is you'll get a smaller room of people who are really interested in what you're doing, really want to engage and are really serious about what you're doing.

[00:07:18] So I think that's the main difference. We really get any delegations we either bring here or when we do trade missions or when we do webinars. It's a group of people that actually want to do something, which, you know, sometimes isn't the case at some of these bigger events. So you kind of mentioned in terms of selling the benefits and getting businesses that are genuinely interested in doing business on the continent. It's not about having big rooms of 500 people.

[00:07:48] It's about the value that you bring. So with that in mind, how do you measure the success when you're working on, say, a trade mission or delegates coming from Africa to Scotland? I mean, we've made it. I guess we measure the success on, on obviously what happens afterwards, whether that's whether that's MOUs, whether that's companies getting on a plane and going, going over there.

[00:08:12] So I think, you know, just in the past week, we've one of the universities we work with, we know have just signed two deals with universities in one in Tanzania, one in Ghana to be a delivery partner for some of their courses. We had a recent visit down to London and we've had one of our energy members have signed an agreement with an organization in Nigeria for battery storage, et cetera.

[00:08:39] So that being smaller, I guess, and having that more, those more intimate meetings, we can actually measure the success of what's actually happening, which is, which is great as well. And I think probably it's worth saying as well that, you know, the other thing we say to delegations coming in, whether that's public or private sector is don't come to Scotland and expect a multi-billion pound investment because it's not going to happen. That's not what we're here for.

[00:09:05] But what we are good at is perhaps more niche areas within sectors where you will find a partner who wants to work with you. And that's what we measure as success rather than, you know, looking at a massive, you know, millions of dollars going in because that's just not what's going to happen when you visit Scotland.

[00:09:26] So what have been some of the challenges of trying to sell the benefits to Scottish companies in terms of the benefits of doing business in Africa? Yeah. I think that there is a, there's definitely a kind of a teaching piece to this, you know, there's, there are not just in Scotland, but throughout Europe and North America, I guess, as well. So quite an antiquated view of what's happening in Africa.

[00:09:51] So there's quite a, there's a bit of a learning piece there, a teaching piece about, you know, this is what's actually happening and these are the companies and these are the sectors that you should be looking at. I think from a Scottish point of view, there's, there's a strange kind of paradox in that there isn't that much trade. There hasn't traditionally been that much trade between Scotland and Africa or investment, but there's huge, there's huge links in other, in other areas.

[00:10:19] So, you know, for instance, historically, you know, there's, there's a lot of Scottish, which is, I don't know if we influence is the right word, but there's a lot of Scottish history in Africa. Most of it good, not all of it. And let's be honest about that. I think there's a lot of religious roots between Scottish missionaries out there and more in the modern day. There's a lot of alumni connections as well.

[00:10:45] I mean, it's, you look at most government cabinets in, across Africa and you'll, you'll probably find a minister that's, that's, that's done part of their education in Scotland. You look at some of the big businesses, particularly in sectors like energy, and there'll be alumni in them as well. I was at a meeting yesterday and it turns out in Zambia, something like eight of the top 10 banks in, in Zambia. Their, their CEOs were, were at university in Scotland.

[00:11:13] So there's these huge educational and alumni links that I think makes it easier. And I think the other point is, and I'm always a bit reticent to say this, but, you know, there's a, you don't want to sound Scottish twee with shortbread whiskey and everything. But I think that with those links being a Scottish business, it does open doors across much of Africa, but it might not if you were from somewhere else. So that initial meetings tend to be, I find a lot easier.

[00:11:43] You move on from there. So you touched on the historical ties and the educational links or ties between Scotland and Africa. And also that despite that trade remains relatively low. Why do you think that is? What could we potentially do to increase the trade flows between Scotland and Africa? I think it's, it's just basically familiarization.

[00:12:09] You know, when we do take companies on trade missions out there and they see it for themselves, suddenly Africa becomes a priority. I think traditionally the trade investment that has gone on between Scotland and Africa has been in the oil and gas sector. You know, there's been Scots working in that for many years. Now that's obviously in the new world changing slightly. That it's kind of changing in that it's not supported anymore by UK or Scottish government.

[00:12:34] But for the African governments, there's still huge potential in that. So there's, there's still work going on there, but then it's suddenly allowing companies to look at other sectors that they perhaps didn't traditionally look at in agriculture, particularly in kind of research and innovation in agriculture, in skills training and education. There's huge amounts of links there. And also renewable energy.

[00:12:59] You know, it's, I think four years ago, renewable energy was not something that was being particularly looked at. And so for Scottish companies, Africa was way down on the list. But now you're seeing some, you know, some of the biggest projects in the world are happening in Africa now. And the supply chains that are needed there and the skills training that's needed there. So these sectors are suddenly opening up. Interesting.

[00:13:21] So you touched on oil and gas, energy, agriculture as potentially promising sectors for Scottish businesses looking to expand. So from your experience and the work that you're doing, are there any examples of, say, a Scottish company that has successfully expanded into Africa with Sabah's help? Yeah. Yeah. There's a few within that, I guess, energy sector in its wider sense.

[00:13:48] We, one of our members, Norco, has just signed the joint venture agreement in Nigeria. We've been having some really interesting discussions lately around aquaculture and seaweed and particularly seaweed. We did a great webinar with Zanzibar. And what came out of it, and it was absolutely fantastic, was on one side in Scotland, you had a lot of the research and development piece going on.

[00:14:14] In Zanzibar, you had the people actually growing it and knowing the conditions and how it works. So there was a great kind of synergy between that. And I know that we've had a couple of companies now that have been over there to look at partnerships and assigning MOUs, et cetera. So, yeah, I think, you know, away from the oil and gas, things are starting to move.

[00:14:34] In education and skills training in particular, another one of our members, City of Glasgow College, is looking at, at the minute, speaking in, I think it's Kenya, Ghana, Namibia, and Tanzania, are working through contracts there at the moment to teacher training, for skills training, et cetera. So universities are looking for partnerships.

[00:15:00] I think the whole idea around education has changed very much. It's a partnership approach. Now, rather than going in and saying, you know, we're a Scottish university, come and study with us, it's now about partnerships with local organisations and universities as well. So that's a real growth area. With that successful expansion, were there any common challenges that these Scottish businesses faced when trying to enter into specific African markets?

[00:15:30] I think there's some cultural differences that have to be explained a little bit. I think that we always emphasise that if you're going into a new market anywhere, really, on the continent, really try and get a local partner. And having a local partner is absolutely vital, in my opinion. I think as well, culturally, you know, we've moved a lot here onto Zoom calls and Teams calls. And I don't think that that cuts it in a lot of Africa.

[00:15:59] I think, you know, one thing we always say as well is, you know, maybe start the conversations on Zoom, but then get on an aeroplane and get out there and shake some hands because that's the way it's going to progress. And there's other small things that, you know, there's a lot of times where you'll find that there's a middleman, perhaps, and that's perhaps here culturally a bit wary of that. But in a lot of places, that's how things work. And you've got to just get on and do it.

[00:16:25] So I think a lot of those barriers are being broken down. And the other thing about visiting is, you know, a lot of people's perceptions of what Africa looks like. Well, you go to Nairobi, you go to Abidjan, you go to Accra or wherever, and you go to these cities, and you go to the central business districts, and you see these really modern, buzzing metropolises. And I think that blows quite a lot of people away. They're just not expecting it. So, yeah, there's a few things.

[00:16:53] And again, it's about that kind of learning piece as well. You touched on this, but I was hoping we could probably expand or go in a bit more detail. But from your experience, what role would you say local expertise and partnership play in actually facilitating business development or market entry for these companies? To me, it's absolutely vital. As I said, yeah, I believe you absolutely need a local partner. And that's to open the right doors.

[00:17:23] It's to give advice. It's to try and stop making mistakes that will set you back, whether that's financially or just in time-wise. But what we've also been looking at, I've been thinking about it for a couple of years, really, is should we be trying to attract more African-based companies into the Sabra network? And the thing that was holding me back was, well, you know, we're a small country.

[00:17:48] What benefits would a company in, say, Accra get from being a part of our network? But we've kind of trialed it, and it's been absolutely fantastic. And it's both for a Scottish company looking to go into market, well, here's someone that can help you, can hold your hand and do it. But also, these are the guys on the ground, the people on the ground that are looking at contracts, looking at tenders, and perhaps need, within the tender that they're bidding for, they need a bit of outside expertise.

[00:18:18] Okay, come through to the Sabra network, we'll find that person for you. And you can do a joint bid on some work. And that's worked so well. We've only really been doing it a few months, but already, I mean, in the last week, we know of a contract that's been won by a joint venture between a Ghanaian company and a Scottish company that neither of them would have got on their own. So that's how important I think it is. Brilliant, brilliant.

[00:18:47] I agree. So I guess in line with this, what would you say are some of the best practices you'd recommend to companies looking to build long-term relationships in Africa? As I say, find that, knock upon it. But more importantly, get out there. Just get out there. It's not going to happen. And look, I get it. And maybe you do as well. I get it.

[00:19:11] And if you haven't been to Africa before, it can look a bit scary because you just don't know anything about it. But with the trade missions we've taken, the first 12 hours, you can see people being a bit nervous, not really sure what to expect. And then 24 hours into it, they're absolutely embracing the experience, embracing the people they're meeting, you know, literally, and just really enjoying themselves and getting to know

[00:19:41] the markets and making things actually happen. So yeah, I don't think there's anything much more important than just getting out there, really. I agree. I guess a lot of what we've discussed so far has been from a private sector perspective, but from the work you do, how important is government to government or business to government relationships? That's a really good question.

[00:20:07] You know, I think African governments are a lot more open to meeting, to traveling, to having one-on-ones, to coming to round tables. They're much more open to it and they get the value of it. And the issue we do sometimes have is, you know, if we have, for instance, the Minister of Energy coming, then they want to meet with the Minister of Energy from here. Yes. And that's not always as easy as it should be, frankly. There are some changes taking place.

[00:20:35] And I'm not just talking in a Scottish perspective, I'm talking in a whole UK perspective. The other thing is, you know, we're not talking about people coming and signing contracts. We're talking about people coming and shaking hands and just being respected. And I think it's hugely important. In fairness, it is something that's changing here. I think the Scottish government are seeing the benefit of that. And in fact, I know they are. And they've reached out to us and said, you know, if you've got these delegations coming in, please let us know. We do want to engage now.

[00:21:04] But it hasn't been that way up till now as much as it should have been. I guess government to government relationships are key to unlocking or more or less formalizing opportunities. So when we're looking at opportunities in terms of Saba, what are some of the fast-growing industries in Africa that Scottish companies should probably keep an eye out for or engage with?

[00:21:31] I think agriculture is a big one for agriculture and aquaculture. And I say that from a point of view that it's the top priority for most governments across Africa. And the land is there. You know, the people are there to work it. But what is perhaps missing is the research and the tech to really bring that up. And that's not dismissing all the amazing tech that's coming out of Africa as well. I think a lot of it is complementary.

[00:21:57] And I think actually what we're trying to do as well is to a lot of agri-tech companies is when you're speaking to your peers in Africa, go in with an open mind because actually a lot of the tech there would be useful here as well, but should be implemented here as well. So that's one. I think renewable energy, to an extent, I think Scotland is focusing on hydrogen and offshore

[00:22:25] wind, which aren't massive yet across Africa. As I said, education, I think, is the big one. And I think there's a big change that is just filtering through to the universities here and colleges as well. And it's something that, to be honest, annoyed me for a while was that there just seemed to be a constant flow of young Africans coming to universities in not just Scotland, in the

[00:22:50] UK as well, paying a lot of money to come here and then going home and not being supported. And by supported, I mean, how do you get these incredibly well-qualified people into real jobs? You know, the phrase I think is underemployed. You're getting a lot of alumni that are going home and sitting around not doing the jobs that they're trained for. And as a country and as a group of universities, a lot of that's on us.

[00:23:18] You know, we need to open the networks so that as students are leaving university here, they're getting into these global business networks. They've been able to find jobs. They've been able to apply for proper jobs. They get the support. It's just not good enough anymore to take £40,000 off someone. And then after four years, say, good luck. You know, I hope it all goes well. So that's something we're kind of working on as well. How can we assist that alumni network? And it's very, very much a two-way street.

[00:23:48] As I mentioned earlier, you know, there's Scottish African alumni in hugely influential positions across Africa. So that should be benefiting us as well. So there's a lot to work on there, but I do think it is changing. I think universities and certainly the conversations I've had in the last few weeks are now realising that, that they're not going to have that flow of students coming anymore for various reasons.

[00:24:12] And that they have to look at partnerships that are more equitable and that there's more at the back end rather than just taking the money at the front end. And that might come over a bit harsh, but I think it's beginning to be more understood. So if we kind of stick on that in terms of looking closer at the areas of higher education and research, we know that Scotland is a global leader when it comes to higher education and research.

[00:24:38] So how have you seen universities effectively collaborate with African institutions for some of that kind of exchange or kind of expansion of their services, businesses, whichever area? Yeah. Well, I think, I think they're being led that way as much as anything, but the fact that a lot of the, you know, the big global funders be that, you know, people like the World Bank

[00:25:02] or the African Union or UK government or anything like that are kind of saying that if you want to do the, if you want this research funding, you need to find a local partner. And we're helping a lot of universities with that at the moment. So I think they're being led that way, but the consequence of being led that way is, is the realisation that there's some really, really excellent researchers, really committed people in universities across Africa.

[00:25:31] I mean, an example of that is the Royal Society of Edinburgh recently. We helped them a bit on a project where they're doing, trying to actually collate all the research partnerships that are currently going on between Scotland and universities in Africa. And it's actually a lot bigger than anyone realised to begin with, but then also looking at the areas where that can be improved. So it is something that's very much being looked at.

[00:25:58] And again, you know, it's that kind of familiarisation piece as well that, you know, until you do it, you don't know. But people, but it looks like universities now are much more open to looking at these research partnerships, are seeing the value in them, you know, both from what comes out the other end, but also, you know, financially as well. Let's be honest about it. But it is happening and it's growing. It's growing. It's growing quite quickly. So that's definitely an area that we're going to be focusing on over the next two or three

[00:26:27] years is how can we assist to make those connections for research development. So are there any other trends outside of that that you're currently seeing with regards to trade opportunities or activities between Africa and Scotland? One thing that we're seeing is agriculture, fish farming. Again, a top priority for just about every government that we speak to in Africa.

[00:26:55] And that's really working with other associations in Scotland. That's something we're seeing a lot of growth in. The agriculture part, as I've already mentioned, we're working with an organisation called the James Hutton Institute. Now they, this is a fantastic story, but they worked with a local organisation in Kenya. They developed six new potato varieties that were bred specifically for the Kenyan conditions.

[00:27:21] So soil conditions, altitude, heat, pests in the soil, et cetera. And they were getting some in the field trials, they were getting something like 30 times the yield compared to the local varieties that had been around for years. So now they're, I found a partner within Kenya to grow these seeds and then distribute them to farmers. And I think that's a really nice niche area that we're really looking at and really interested in.

[00:27:50] Another example is, you know, Namibia has such massive ambitions in hydrogen. So how can we, at this early stage, get Namibian organisations or Scottish organisations talking about hydrogen? The other thing in Namibia is obviously they've got this absolutely enormous oil and gas deposit that is coming out of the ground, you know, and, and, you know, that's a separate conversation, but as they see it and, and frankly, as I see it as well, it's, it's going to be part

[00:28:17] of their financial security over the next few years, but they want to get out of the ground in the best way they can. So they're working, we're trying to make those partnerships between Namibia and kind of the net zero ecosystem in Scotland. So that if they are drilling for oil and gas, it's coming out of the ground in the best way possible with, with technologies and shared, shared partnerships. So yeah, there's lots of things like that going on. So partnerships are key. A hundred percent.

[00:28:45] It's, it's not, it's not even, you know, even a decade ago, that wasn't the case. It was where, you know, we'll come in, we'll invest, we'll do our own thing and then we'll leave. No, that's not, that's not it anymore. You can't do that. And if you want to be successful, it's about partnerships. Fantastic. So looking ahead, what is your vision for Scotland, Africa trade relations? Where'd you see it in five years time? That's a very good question. Where do I see it?

[00:29:15] I think that in five years time, I'd like it to be more equitable. So I'd like companies to be looking at it from the get go as a partnership. I can see in the areas we've discussed where there's, you know, there can be new and long lasting partnerships. I think there is a realization in Scotland in other things like consumer goods, that there is this massive growing young population in Africa that isn't the stereotype that you might've had 10 years ago.

[00:29:45] And that there's opportunities to sell goods, to sell goods there as well. What I want to see as well, and what we've been working on a bit is there's all these incredible young dynamic companies in Africa who, you know, are looking for a foothold to move into other parts of the world. Well, why can't they come to Scotland and set up a European base in Scotland and particularly that alumni group? Why can't they come here and use the networks we've got here?

[00:30:13] That's what I'd really love to see is it being, is that trade growing, but also growing in both directions, not just in one direction. Looking closer to home, where do you see Sabah in the next five years? What role will you be playing in all of this? What I said earlier about, you know, getting more involved with the private sector across Africa and being able to make those connections.

[00:30:39] You know, I'd love us to be a kind of an organization where someone sitting in Nairobi who needs a partner can phone us and say, you know, we need this kind of partner. Can you put us in touch? And we do that. That would be fantastic for me. I think we want to do more of the trade missions we're doing. We want to get people out there to see where it is. And I guess, you know, we want to be the organization. We want to be the go-to organization in Scotland for any company that's even considering looking

[00:31:09] at Africa and to be able to show what a fantastic place it is to do business. And, you know, there are risks. Of course there's risks. Are they a bit more than elsewhere in the world? Actually, yeah, they probably are. But what do you get back? You get back an awful lot more than you do in other places in the world. And I mean that both financially, but I mean that also as, you know, as a human being, you just get a lot more from working in Africa. Quote of the week. Last question, Fraser.

[00:31:39] Different to the rest of the other questions. It's as people, we often have, say, mantras, quotes, proverbs, affirmations that we live by when times are challenging or when times are good. Do you have one that you can share with us today? Oh, no. Most of the ones that I know are, we're very good in Scotland at laughing at ourselves.

[00:32:02] And one of the first questions whenever we speak to someone from across Africa is, how's the weather? Is it really cold? And, you know, we've had delegations come in here and, you know, walk off there, walk out of the airport and just eyes wide open, can't believe in quite what the weather is. So the one I love is, and I always tell people when I first meet them here is, you know, if you don't like the weather in Scotland, just wait five minutes. Because it changes all the time.

[00:32:34] Very true. Some days you can get four seasons in a day. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I'm sorry. It's not, it's not more intellectual than that, but it's one that amuses me and it's one that really breaks the ice when people come in. No, I like it. I like it. So we've come to the end of today's conversation. It's been a great conversation. Obviously you guys are doing some fantastic work. You've been around for a while, which says a lot.

[00:33:02] It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast tonight, Fraser. Thank you for sharing the opportunities and some of the challenges of the world. Trying to strengthen trade between Scotland and Africa. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the exciting collaborations that come forward or emerge in the near future. And thanks to you. And thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. And, you know, just as I think I've said to you before, I just sometimes in awe of what

[00:33:30] you do and you get on with it and you do it and it's, you're doing some great stuff as well. So thanks for having me on. Thank you a lot. Thank you a lot. And we will speak soon. Great. Thank you. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share or tell a friend about it. You can also rate, review us in Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast.

[00:33:55] Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.