Generational Wealth: How African Families Are Navigating Wealth, Succession and Investment Across Africa with Faizal Bhana and Claire Machin

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast. We have a very long and established deep ties with Africa, where our award-winning financial services sector has been traveling for decades. Sontira Global itself is an independent global service provider. We provide services for fund corporate and private wealth for families. But essentially, we're talking about the great wealth transfer, this shift of family fortune from one generation to the next.

[00:00:29] How can we then get the next gen engaged to help them take some responsibility for that wealth transition to their own children and their grandchildren? So it's around that holistic approach. Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential. You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa Podcast, where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today, we have Faizal Bhana and Claire Machin. Faizal is a director for Middle East Africa and India at Jersey Finance and is responsible for developing the strategy for Jersey Finance's engagement in those markets.

[00:01:21] Claire is group director of Sontira Global and head of private wealth at the Jersey office. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast, Faizal and Claire. How are you? Hi, Terser. Great. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Terser. Pleasure to have you here. So today we're here to have or to explore a specific area of investment, which is not commonly spoken about in the Africa space.

[00:01:47] We're going to explore trends in investment and finance structuring from a family office perspective. But before we get started, I was hoping you could both introduce yourselves and share how your roles are at Jersey Finance and Sontira Global connect with Africa's evolving financial landscape.

[00:02:10] Thank you very much, Terser. So as you said, Faizal Bhana, director for the Middle East, Africa and India at Jersey Finance. Jersey Finance essentially is the representative body for the financial services sector in Jersey.

[00:02:25] And we have very long and established, I'd say deep ties with Africa, where our award winning financial services sector has been traveling for decades, including, of course, East Africa and Kenya specifically. Within Africa, we have key markets that we focus on.

[00:02:47] Of course, we do business with a lot of the continent or our financial services sector does business with a lot of the continent providing services and solutions throughout. But we have key markets, South Africa, Rwanda and Kenya. And, you know, we have been supporting and traveling into these markets, like I said, over many years.

[00:03:10] In fact, in South Africa, we have a colleague on the ground, given the longer ties that we have with that market and some of the larger corporates and institutions that have a relationship. It's quite interesting. South Africa has got quite a diaspora in Jersey, actually, and in Kenyans as well now. We have many, many Kenyans and South Africans that are employed on the ground in Jersey.

[00:03:35] Essentially, Terser, the relationship is about providing a mutually beneficial relationship that provides GDP growth and helps contribute towards employment on the continent. You know, we did some independent research a couple of years ago and looking at the post-COVID period. We were looking at the annual contribution that Jersey as a jurisdiction makes into global value chains.

[00:04:01] This was independent research undertaken by a UK-based research company. And, you know, it found that on an annual basis, this is on an annual basis, Jersey supported six billion pounds of Africa's GDP, intermediated capital and supported this intermediation, which translated into 916,000 jobs a year.

[00:04:29] So that, you know, I hope you'll agree is quite a considerable contribution that we make to the continent, both in terms of GDP growth and employment. Fantastic. But like I said, we've had our industry flying into other parts. Of course, South Africa has even got a colleague on the ground, but, you know, I'm joined today by Claire Machen.

[00:04:47] She is one of those that has been travelling into Africa for many years and very happy to have firms like hers that have their own deep relationship with the continent, providing solutions, exchanging knowledge and capacity building to support the growth of the individual economies. Claire, over to you. Thanks, Faisal. Yeah, so I'm head of private wealth based in Jersey, a trustee and the board of directors of our business.

[00:05:16] Santira Global itself is an independent global service provider. So we provide services for fund corporate and private wealth for families. I've been actually personally, as Faisal mentioned, travelling to Kenya for over 20 years particularly. I've also covered Nigeria and I have a colleague that covers South Africa. And again, we've been covering that market for well over 20 years. I mean, I have a real passion for the continent.

[00:05:41] I've been working with families and their advisors in succession planning, helping raise awareness of potential issues and getting conversations going with families around the sort of issues they're facing, both from the family situations, also their businesses. And, you know, helping to kind of connect and working collaboratively with other advisors within industry to bring a kind of an end result for clients.

[00:06:04] But it's sitting around with families and being an extension of the families to try and help for that transition of wealth to the next generation. Thank you for that.

[00:06:28] I think that's a fantastic place to kick off, Tessa.

[00:06:39] I think to understand what that means and to put that into context on a global level, you know, some research has found that by 20 to 48, up to $124 trillion is going to exchange or flow and transfer to future heirs.

[00:06:59] Of that 80%, $100 trillion approximately is going to transfer from baby boomer generation or older to this next gen that we're seeing now very much at the helm of family businesses and conglomerates. I would say some family businesses across the continent are huge. You no longer can refer to them just as a business. These are multi-jurisdictional conglomerates.

[00:07:26] This is essentially, in simple terms, it's the transfer of the wealth. It's the transfer of the fortune of the family from one generation to the next. You know, you'll hear many different sayings about how the second and third generation may result in the end of the family legacy or the family business. This is very much true.

[00:07:52] You know, even till today, you find research being carried out, including by the big four, that finds that a lot of the family businesses and family wealth is dissipated when it gets to the second, third generation. And it's all to do with the lack of governance. We're going to talk a little bit more about that in a moment and try and unpack that.

[00:08:16] But essentially, when you're talking about the great wealth transfer, you're talking about this shift of family fortune from one generation to the next. In Africa, you'll find a lot of this generational shift is from the founding generation. So this is the patriarch, matriarch, or the family members that actually created and built that wealth. And that is now moving to the next generation that is there to grow that wealth.

[00:08:42] But in other parts of the world, it could be sixth, seventh, eighth, twentieth, fiftieth, sixtieth generation that is getting a transfer of all that wealth. I just want to provide some context from an African perspective. In Africa itself, at this moment in time, you know, independent research again has found that there's 2.5 trillion worth of total investable wealth on the continent.

[00:09:05] So that means that that 2.5 trillion dollars at some point will need to transition from one generation to the next. So our conversation today is about some of those challenges and how to go about ensuring that that transition is done in an orderly, timely way with a view to preserving not only the wealth and growing it, of course,

[00:09:30] but also preserving, importantly, the family legacy and the family relationships. So, you know, we are in the midst of that. Certain regions in the world are seeing this a lot more prominently than others, but definitely we see the same in Africa. Like Claire said, you know, East Africa, West Africa, South Africa and North Africa, you know, all of these parts, none of them are immune to this. You know, you've got family businesses that are the backbone of economies around the continent.

[00:10:00] They employ huge numbers and they create GDP value in all of the economies. So they're quite a significant material part of national economies and governments are understanding that. That's why you see governments stepping in over and over again, trying to create this environment, create the space for this orderly and timely transition,

[00:10:24] which is very, very important to ensure not only, like I said, the preservation of legacy, wealth, relationships from a family perspective, but also the employment and GDP impact of those businesses in the national economies within each nation. So would you say this need for preservation of legacy is treating almost like a rise of family office structures among African families?

[00:10:52] Very good question. I think from my perspective, at a higher level, I would say the family office structure, essentially, if you break that down, the family office is about organizing not only the finances, but the operations of the family and its wealth. You know, so family offices mean different things to different families and you have different types of family offices.

[00:11:20] And, you know, of course, there's a cost associated with having a dedicated family office. This would mean you'd need to have people that run that family office. You know, you'd need to pay people to do that. How do you work out that? So it's the family office may not necessarily be the solution for all families, but essentially the point that you make about organization, I think that's a big one. And I'll defer to Claire on this in terms of what she's seeing also on the continent.

[00:11:49] But I think it's important to take a step back and just think about this organizational point, your structures so that you're able to better liaise between the different generations of the family, but not only the family, but also the family and the professional teams that are employed within these family businesses. And then you have another layer where you have family, you know, families that is involved in the business and family that's not involved in the business.

[00:12:17] So it's quite complex when you take a step back, but, you know, it's more focused around organizing as opposed to what is the actual solution, because this will be different for different types of family and we will come to that. Fantastic. So leading on from what Faisal has just mentioned or kind of described, Claire, what would you say is driving the shift from the traditional approaches that we've probably seen in the past to the more formal investment management?

[00:12:45] Yeah, so I mean, just following on there from what Faisal was saying, I mean, you know, historically, we saw lots around families trying to protect family wealth. Now there's been a shift and particularly post-COVID, I think more than anything, around corporate governance, but family governance driven structuring. So it's navigating kind of the complexities of international families and ensuring that their wealth is going to transition through perpetuity. So we're seeing now more, it's this holistic approach to family wealth and family governance.

[00:13:13] The family governance words just seem to resonate really, really well with families. And it's something that, you know, sitting around a table with families of all generations and actually talking about what their intent, what the intentions are, what they're actually looking to achieve over the next 30, 40 years, and how we can then implement the engagement of next gen, you know, now at the situations that we've got where we're dealing with matriarchs and patriarchs of the family

[00:13:38] who are still with us, to actually how can we then responsibly get the next gen engaged to help them take some responsibility for that wealth transition through to their own children and their grandchildren. So it's around that holistic approach. We're seeing more on the kind of, you know, for structuring wise, it's around private trust company structuring potentially, where actually we can, with the help of the corporate governance from us as a service provider, we can then allow the families to be involved in decision making

[00:14:09] with such as family constitutional documents, regular quarterly board meetings with families to help with the governance and the family governance piece. So you've kind of noticed some of the trends and I guess the holistic approaches which are being incorporated now, which also incorporate some of the alternative forms of finance, such as Sharia compliance and green finance also becoming more prominent.

[00:14:34] How are these options influencing investment strategies specifically in East Africa? Yeah, so I think that's an interesting angle to look at. So we now focus on actual trends in financing and investment. So I think going back to what Claire just said there, just trying to bridge what she's just said there, you've got a lot of family business that are businesses and families that are in the midst of this transition.

[00:15:02] You find within the family sphere that sometimes, and Claire touched on this, the next gen are quite influential in those businesses, but sometimes you find that the next gen don't want to really be involved. And this is quite true within the African context. So what you see is you get the children or the second generation typically

[00:15:26] that are sent out overseas, UK, US, et cetera, to go and get educated. And then they become, or they take a different path, become professionals or they become doctors. And, you know, they become, you know, sort of get into this very, a very different profession. And they don't really want to come back to Africa and, you know, work in their family's traditional business.

[00:15:53] So this then results in this situation where the patriarch, matriarch founders, the people that are running the businesses, you know, getting old and they're thinking, okay, how do we, what's our exit strategy? You know, our kids don't want to be involved in the business. Sometimes they want to benefit from the profits that come from the business, but they don't really want to be involved in the day-to-day management of the business. And sometimes it's the other extreme, you know, where the family say, look, we'll just sell it.

[00:16:22] And distribute the funds. And, you know, the patriarch matriarch can, you know, live the rest of their years, enjoy that with their children, grandchildren. And the children can then use their share of the wealth to do what they want to do with it in the countries that they're living in, maybe in the West or in other African countries. You have that scenario. And if you think about that scenario, but then related but different, you have other scenarios where the families are looking to expand. You know, you've got this Africa Free Continental Trade Agreement area,

[00:16:52] that agreement has been created, huge opportunities. Kenya, for example, is a driving force behind that. You know, it was their first signature to their first country to implement it. So, you know, it's an entrepreneurial society. So, you know, the businesses, including family businesses, are looking for opportunity to grow and to expand. So for that, you know, they're looking for outside investment financing.

[00:17:16] And then you also have other kind of issues that come up, like tax, sophisticated. Tax is becoming more and more of an issue, not only local taxation, but international taxation. You know, like I've said earlier, some of these family businesses are big, are huge, are multi-jurisdictional. So they have their own tax complexity. So what happens is in all those scenarios,

[00:17:42] you've got different reasons for these family businesses to need outside investment, to, you know, for the need of this outside investment or outside financing. And once you try to tap into that, that's when you get this requirement. Because, you know, investors that come in that are not related to you, these are professional private equity firms that come in, will demand more transparency, more governance.

[00:18:08] And Claire's touched on that, corporate governance coming into the business. They would need to understand key decision makers. And in certain instances, they would impose C-suite on the business to make sure that they have the right team in place to achieve the objectives that they need. So, you know, this drives governance into place. And then your question around financing, of course, you have family businesses that are tapping into the traditional forms of debt,

[00:18:38] whether it's from financial institutions or going out to their shareholders. But then, you know, you're in this situation where you now have access to alternative forms of finance. You talked about Sharia-compliant finance. You know, you've got other forms of sustainable finance. These are because of various things, technology, you know, access to global markets. You know, this relationship that African businesses have

[00:19:05] with Jersey and our finance industry that Claire talked about, you know, one of the benefits of that is that they get access to international capital. But, you know, access to that international capital, you know, requires proper structures, professional operations. But then the opportunity is huge. So Sharia-compliant financing, let's look at that as one of the alternative forms of financing, because it's quite, you know,

[00:19:35] it's in the news in East Africa, and specifically in Kenya. So, you know, globally, this market is valued at $4.5 trillion, projected to increase to $6.7 trillion. Just the global sukuk, and this was, you know, you would have heard about the Lindsay sukuk in Kenya recently, that was used for, to finance social housing. So if you look at that, you know, the sukuk market itself globally is worth, you know, up to $170 billion.

[00:20:05] When you compare it to the bond market, which is, you know, obviously the sukuk is the Sharia finance equivalent of the conventional bond. If you look at the conventional bond market and compare, you know, the volumes, of course the sukuk market is tiny, but that tells you, that that shows you that they're potentially there. There's a huge potential. Governments are looking at tapping into this form of alternative finance, and also corporates at the back of that are looking to tap into this.

[00:20:34] You know, there's a lot of reasons why they do that. This is an entire day's podcast. Yes, it definitely is. But just a couple of points I'll make. You know, there's an alignment with the principles of ESG that becomes quite attractive for family businesses. It moves away from the realm of religious-based financing to an ethical kind of form of financing.

[00:21:02] Again, Claire talked about the next gen and the influence of the next gen. You know, next gen are global citizens, tech savvy, and very impact, you know, very impactful. They want to understand what is the impact of our actions, not only to our business, but to our community, to our country, to our continent, to the globe. So, you know, they see the alignment with some of these principles of ESG and Sharia-compliant financing, and this makes it attractive

[00:21:31] in its own right. But, you know, going back to the fundamentals, it's an alternative form of finance that is available, readily, widely available now, and the government is creating enabling structures so regulation and laws are being amended to make it a level playing field. Because, obviously, the type of finance is quite different to conventional. But so all these things, you know, open this whole suite

[00:22:00] of alternative financing, not only to family businesses and corporates alike, but also sovereigns. We're seeing sovereigns go out and look at that. And look, there's various reasons. You know, I talked about, you know, some of the exit reasons or some of the reasons why families would look at attracting outside investment. But, you know, there's an IPO drive. You know, Tersa in Kenya, there's a lot of IPOs that are taking place. And there's the government's

[00:22:30] own vision in terms of, you know, in terms of uplifting the life of its population. So, you know, sectors such as real estate, agriculture, technology, social, you know, all these kinds of things are all areas where family businesses are piling in to obviously support the government's vision, but obviously on a commercial basis. Yeah. One area that you emphasise is the need of governance and transparency. I know there seems to be a growing emphasis on corporate governance.

[00:23:00] So, why has this become such a critical area post-pandemic? Prior to COVID, obviously, we've touched on earlier, you know, there were discussions, obviously, around planning and for protection of wealth. But post-COVID, I think there's still difficulties with talking with families around the discussion of death and succession. I think, you know, some families still feel that, you know, talking about the subject,

[00:23:30] certainly culturally, it's something that they just try to avoid in certain circumstances, which makes it really, really difficult for the families, for the next generation. And I've had a situation this week with exactly that, where, you know, the father is in his 70s, he's not willing to talk about kind of, you know, the wealth and what's going to happen and actually putting some planning in place. But the children who are in their 30s are actually having sleepless nights around this,

[00:23:58] which is causing friction within the family. So it's kind of having those discussions is really key around business governance, but also this family governance that we keep talking about and structuring kind of driven around how can we actually work with families? It's not about, you know, setting up structures and then, you know, leaving them, here we go, we'll take the wealth and then we'll crack on with it and it's up to you then to sort of sit in the background. This is about actually working together collaboratively

[00:24:27] with families, with advisors to ensure that we're providing the protection and succession planning opportunities and solutions for families so that it kind of takes the burden away from the issues and discussions that they're having to have and allows families then to also enjoy the family relationship as opposed to this pressure around, you know, where they're involved, however, it's not taking over, it's not taking control of their lives.

[00:24:57] We're there to help guide and implement and help them through the process. Brilliant. So you mentioned something quite key there with regards to having those discussions internally as a family. So how can families keep the next generation engaged and interested through those discussions? What would you recommend? I think the key thing with all of this is talking. You know, it's that, it's the engagement piece, it's making sure that people are actually speaking. Sometimes it takes

[00:25:27] a third person or third parties to actually kind of get the conversation going. But it's really key that people actually talk and sit down and discuss and are open with each other. Another kind of, you know, just a live situation of a client who is, again, is fairly elderly, has been a client of ours for many, many years. And he has, he has grown up children. They've never discussed the family wealth and he's realised that actually now we're actually having discussions. We're then being engaged,

[00:25:57] he's asked our guidance. So we're then actually advising on how we can bring the next generation in but also allow him to continue with discussions, continue with the involvement of the wealth creation and growing that again, you know, during his lifetime and beyond. But actually putting some structuring and some governance around it and it's kind of live situations but it just kind of brings it all back home to it's so important that, you know,

[00:26:26] you engage with people at the right time to ensure that even if it's just discussions initially and then you're having discussions with the families or as a family but it's having those conversations and then deciding how best actually you can implement this process to best suit the family. As you mentioned Claire, conversations are great but it does require some legal structuring. So what legal and structural solutions are available to help families manage their succession

[00:26:56] planning effectively? Yeah, so I think I definitely concur with Claire that, you know, the process needs to be transparent, it needs to be inclusive and it needs to be structured. So that's to help that conversation to understand what the wishes are, you know, what the capabilities are of different family members and how is the family going to be involved

[00:27:25] going forward post the founder's death. So, you know, that conversation happens, you have the governance, you have family constitutions or family constitutions that are created that is an agreement essentially between all of the family members that brings them all in there to say these are the principles that we're agreeing to as a family going forward. But when you look at it holistically and when you look at it in terms of structuring the wealth, if you take it

[00:27:55] back to basics, there's a number of typical structures that are used to help families structure their personal holdings, assets, investments and businesses. So you have trusts, you have corporate holding structures and then you have other types of structures. You know, in Jersey we have structures that are based on foundations even in the Middle East we have that. You don't have a foundation structure in Kenya

[00:28:24] and this is quite an important point. You have local Kenyan legal structures that are available within Kenyan law and regulations and then obviously for the international nexus of families you know, with international assets and investments and plans you have international assets and Claire touched on the private trust company. This is also like a hybrid of the trust itself with some

[00:28:54] corporate-like qualities in there. So, you know, there's a whole breadth of structures that are available to families without wanting to get too technical on this podcast. It's all available both from a local law perspective and an international law perspective and then obviously surround yourselves with good advisors both locally and internationally people like Santera who can help you make those decisions in terms of what is

[00:29:24] the right structure for you, what is the right wrapper or the correct kind of legal holding or legal structure for your family and for your circumstances and then they can help you in terms of planning the administration of it as well on the preservation of it. Fantastic. So, if we zoom out and look at the bigger picture and look at the financial centres providing this advice and services, I know some of the financial centres are positioning themselves as centres

[00:29:54] of excellence. What would you say differentiates Jersey from this growing network of international finance centres? So, Jersey and this international finance centre has been around for more than six decades. You know, I've already said, you know, we have some of the most well-established legal regulations and laws certainly in the private wealth space and you're seeing this being,

[00:30:23] you know, experiencing this today on the call with, you know, with service providers from our finance centre. Claire is based in Jersey and Santa Clara, you know, have a large presence in Jersey and we have a very well-established financial services sector with deep expertise and experience. Our finance industries and practitioners roll up their sleeves not only are they at the

[00:30:53] cutting edge of developments that are taking place in these various, you know, various sectors, but they're travelling up to the markets that they're servicing. you know, they're present in the markets that they're servicing globally. You know, this is the differentiator. As a jurisdiction, Jersey has always been an early adopter of global standards. In fact, we would say we're standard setters when it comes to transparency, when it comes

[00:31:23] to confidentiality, when it comes to information exchange, the kind of international standards that are required to have a successful global finance industry, but a global finance industry that is robust and whose integrity is maintained so that it gives confidence to the users of the financial services system. You know, our jurisdiction is based on principles of partnership, collaboration, we've talked

[00:31:53] about information and knowledge exchange, capacity building. You know, we have partnerships globally with other international finance centers, including the Dubai International Finance Center, closer in Africa with Kigali. You know, we are always talking to others that are being created. You know, most countries recognize that they need to have some form of a concentrated ecosystem

[00:32:22] available to be able to attract international players in their market. You know, in Nairobi we've got Terrific that is looking to set up its own space as a finance center. You know, we've had Nairobi International Finance Center for many years trying to also do that and Kigali has done it successfully and we have a very close relationship with Kigali as well. So it's about having robust regulations and laws,

[00:32:52] having an expert and experienced service provider base and having the ability to, you know, to be able to service clients at global standards. You know, and Jersey excels and is award winning jurisdiction at all of these sort of requirements. Fantastic. So if we move from some of the current activities and look ahead, do you think there will be greater collaboration between financial centers that are aiming

[00:33:21] to serve African clients and families? Yeah, so I mentioned that already. You know, we have these relationships where, you know, we have certainly, for example, with Kigali International Finance Center there, we have a very close relationship. They travel up to Jersey. You know, we exchange know-how and knowledge and expertise and experience with them. our CEO, you know, has been a speaker at some

[00:33:51] of the conferences and some of the forums that have been organized by Kigali or Rwanda Finance, as it is, for Kigali International Finance. And we've had Rwanda Finance and its team travel up to Jersey and be part of some of the engagement that we have on the ground. So, you know, this is a live example of the kind of collaboration. To answer your question, going forward, the collaboration is only going to increase. You know, we're living in an

[00:34:21] interconnected global financial ecosystem. And for it to operate smoothly, efficiently, cost-effectively, you need to have collaboration at that level, not only from the user base, but from the actual regulator and administrative base. So, you know, you're going to see greater collaboration, you're going to see greater transfer of know-how and expertise. And what

[00:34:50] it all boils down to, Terser, is that, you know, I alluded to that. For the local assets, for the local investments, for the local businesses, the local IFCs will provide the expertise and experience needed for that. But when you get into the international realm, when you get into accessing global capital, when you get into accessing global markets like the City of London, New York, Frankfurt,

[00:35:20] et cetera, you know, you will need the established jurisdiction, the established finance centres like Jersey to provide that platform, to provide that bridge in a collaborative way. So, you know, it works well and it's only going to get better as technology is used more and more. Can I just add something as well? So many families now are international with international assets. So, there is the need for the international collaboration at the right planning to achieve the right solution for the

[00:35:49] clients. It's important obviously that we're working together cross border, but building that network of professionals within those jurisdictions to be able to provide that collaborative approach and I think that's what we're all starting to work more towards now, ultimately to achieve, you know, the end result for families and you touched on something quite key there, Claire, in terms of developments as improved partnerships and collaborations. I was wondering,

[00:36:20] have you seen or is there an instance where this improved international collaboration and partnerships are contributing to broader economic growth and opportunity, specifically in Africa? At the very start when I made the introductions, I thought about the global value chains research that we did and the contribution that Jersey's intermediation of international capital making to the GDP and employment within Africa.

[00:36:50] You know, it's not a small figure, this is huge numbers, you know, it's close to a million jobs a year, you know, close to six billion or over six billion of capital that is deployed on the continent. you know, this kind of collaboration or this kind of impact only happens because of this kind of collaboration. Now, you know, we have, so for example, I also talked about the Rwanda finance, that's another example of the kind of collaboration,

[00:37:19] you know, we help in essentially capacity building and exchanging our expertise and transferring our expertise to Kigal International Finance and to help them develop their own kind of infrastructure and ecosystem. And within Kenya, again, as an example, we have a very wide ranging memorandum of understanding that was signed a few years ago, pre-COVID, between our respective governments, that not

[00:37:49] only looks at financial services, but it looks at other sectors, agriculture, cultural exchange, and so I talked about the vibrant diaspora of Kenyans that we have in Jersey. So we've got, you know, many Kenyans that are now employed and working in Jersey. In the same way, you know, our industry from the financial services side travels up to Kenya. There is an example of that. So this kind of exchange and collaboration

[00:38:19] only helps in building these deep kind of ties, cultural kind of mutual respect and understanding between different jurisdictions. At the end of the day, the proof is in the actual development that comes through. I can tell you all sorts of examples, but at the end of the day, what's the actual impact? And independent research, like I said, has found that these kind of relationships that Jersey has with the continent

[00:38:48] are contributing significantly to both the GDP and employment and bringing FDI onto the continent. Fantastic. And there we go. We're finished. Thank you, Claire and Faisal for joining me on the Unlocking Africa podcast. It's been definitely a thought-provoking conversation. I think we've covered quite a lot there from family wealth, investment structuring, and the role of international financial centres. So yeah, it's been a very, very

[00:39:18] detailed and fascinating conversation. So thank you for your time and thank you for joining me today. Thank you, Tessa. Thank you very much. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, or tell a friend about it. You can also rate, review us in Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast. Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.