Family, Technology, and Inclusion: How a Tunisian Online Accelerator is Empowering Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Talent with Sonia and Nour Nasfi

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast. I wanted to develop an online platform but with a specific niche. We met our third co-founder, Adif, who is a hard-of-hearing person and president of the Tunisian Deaf Association. And together we began this journey. To find statistics for people with hearing disabilities, that was very hard, especially to find statistics about the African continent.

[00:00:28] Deaf people are more confident with virtual trainers because there will be no stigma or discrimination, etc. They will be at ease while learning. Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential. You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa Podcast, where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today we have Sonia Nasfi and Nour Nasfi, who are founders of DeafSquare, which is an online career accelerator that bridges the gap between talented people who are hard-of-hearing and employers,

[00:01:19] and helps them access high-quality education in the tech field and job opportunities in leading industries. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast Sonia and Nour. How are you? Thank you. Yeah, we're very happy to be with you. Fantastic. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Looking forward to our conversation today.

[00:01:41] Just to get us started, can you share the inspiration behind this great business that you've founded, DeafSquare? Yeah, yeah, with pleasure. So the story began when I wanted to find a mission for my life. And as I believe that learning is very important for every person, I wanted to develop an online platform, but with a specific niche.

[00:02:08] At the same time, Nour, who is my daughter, graduated from high school and majored in sign language. There we met deaf associations and we felt that they really need online training, especially in IT fields. And that's how it began. We met our third co-founder, Adif, who is a hard of hearing person and president of the Tunisian Deaf Association.

[00:02:37] And together we began this journey. In the beginning, we just developed the training part, which is all our training is delivered in sign language. This is the most important feature that we have. And then we found that we have to accompany them all over their journey. So we added the employment part.

[00:03:02] Now, our solution is an all in one solution that begins from training to mentoring and to matching them with our partners. Fantastic. Thank you for that. You mentioned something there, which I failed to mention in the introduction. You are a mother daughter team. So how has it been running a company with your mother? What's that dynamic like? Well, it surely is a dynamic that's very different from the dynamic at home.

[00:03:33] Yeah. So at home, you know, like, you know, as a daughter at home, I have to, you know, respect my parents, be nice to them, not talk back. You know, when they tell you, OK, do a chore, you do it. But when we're at the office and we're working, I find that I'm bossing her a lot. So the whole kind of change of it. But no, like it is quite an interesting dynamic.

[00:03:59] I think that we were lucky enough to have like a really good relationship between us beforehand. I mean, very early on in my childhood, my parents and I have established this really beautiful parent daughter relationship. There's a lot of trust and a lot of encouragement. And it was just an overall very supportive environment that I grew up in.

[00:04:19] So moving into the professional world and working for the first time and working with my parents, I found myself in a very healthy work environment where I wasn't pushed to do something that I didn't want. But, you know, I was being supported and being really well taken care of. It was really interesting. And the fact that I've known my mother for like, what, 22 years now. So I kind of know her pet peeves.

[00:04:46] I know what she likes, what she doesn't like, how she likes to work. And same for her. She knows like my rhythm. She knows what, how I do work, when I'm going to do work, when I'm not going to do work. So the communication was overall easier than if I were to work with someone I didn't know. Yes. And yeah, it's like we finish each other's sentences. Sometimes she has like lots of thoughts going on in her brain.

[00:05:13] And she would like have problems like just getting it out. So I would be like her translator. I'd be like, okay, what she means to say is this and this and this, because we just get each other, you know? Fantastic. Fantastic. So how would you say this very close and unique family dynamic that you have has shaped the direction and the vision behind Deaf Square?

[00:05:35] Um, well, I think that first and foremost, ever since we were kids, my parents would teach us to be kind to people and teach us to be altruistic. And they've taught us how to be good human beings. And so in our lives, my, my brothers and I, we've just, you know, really been trying to do good in life.

[00:05:58] Um, so when I ended up getting sign language as a major, I didn't just choose it because, okay, I have to like choose something for college. But it was because growing up, my parents noticed that I had like a love for languages. So they really invested in that. They, they, um, had me taking, uh, French courses and English courses and Spanish courses, uh, and just really invested in that hobby of mine.

[00:06:24] And so I got like, I was like, okay, sign language is very interesting language to learn. And I think it's very practical. Um, besides when you learn it, you open up communication to an entirely new community or like to an entirely different community from, from the hearing community. So they were very supportive of my choice. And so, yeah, I got to study sign language and then I was just like always very excited to tell my parents about my day and what I've learned.

[00:06:51] Uh, and, uh, yeah, eventually my mom was like getting more and more interested, more and more invested until, she asked to meet with my professors who are also deaf and hard of hearing. Um, and she, you know, we started meeting with associations and just getting involved with the community. Uh, and just, yeah, I think the fact that they taught us to be very open and to be very kind led us to where we are now and led us to helping deaf people choose their future.

[00:07:21] So yeah, I think, I think that's what I was saying. So as we mentioned earlier, the idea of deaf square came through your studying of sign language, which was what influenced the decision to create the business. So during this process, what were some of the biggest barriers that you noticed that people who are hard of hearing, especially on the continent, what were some of the barriers that you saw that they face in terms of accessing tech education? Yes.

[00:07:51] Yes. The first barrier that we encountered is accessing the deaf community because they are very isolated. They don't have confidence in other people. It was very hard for us to show them that we really want to help them and help them achieve their dreams. That was the first barrier.

[00:08:15] Then the second barrier, maybe because we are women, it is not always easy to become an entrepreneur, but with Noor, we knew how to approve to the Tunisians, especially Tunisian ecosystem that we have value. We have experience, we have talent and we can really build a promising startup, especially also with Noor.

[00:08:44] We participated to many programs, also to international and national competition where we had prices. So then we proved that we really deserve to be entrepreneurs. Mainly these are the two principal barriers.

[00:09:05] If I could add one more, it would definitely be statistics because when you are building a startup for a specific niche, you kind of like need to know, okay, how big is the market? How many people are there? How many people are there specifically that can use your product?

[00:09:21] And so for, you know, to find statistics for, for people with hearing disabilities, that was very hard, especially to find statistics about the African continent or Tunisia specifically, since we started with that. So yeah, access to information was, was definitely something that slowed down the process at the beginning. And then we just had to work off statistics from the United States, because that was the ones that were much more available.

[00:09:51] So yeah, that was like kind of something that I wish would, wish would change. Like let's have more statistics about different types of minorities in the world. And if anyone's listening. No, I totally understand. Yeah. And then I guess that's a key point that you mentioned about the statistics and information available, not just for, I guess, the end user, but for yourself who are growing a business. It's actually quite key.

[00:10:16] And also, Sonia, you mentioned about the programs and competitions that you've taken part in that has helped you reinforce that what you're doing is the right thing and you're moving in the right direction. So I guess with that in mind, what are some of the key moments or would I say turning points that have shaped the business? Was there a specific moment where you achieve something where you thought, okay, we're doing the right thing or we're being noticed by the right people? Um, yeah.

[00:10:46] So when we were at the idea stage, we participated in the founder Institute, uh, incubation program. We knew nothing about, uh, entrepreneurship and startups. And after four months, we won the competition. We got the first prize.

[00:11:05] So this moment was very important for us because we knew that we are capable and also that people are believing in us and in our project. That gave us a lot of confidence to continue the journey. Then we participated in other programs. Also, we won some competitions.

[00:11:30] And the second key point was when Noor went to Cape Town to participate to the African Arena competition. And there she won the prize of the most promising entrepreneur. There we said, it's okay. All Africa believe in us. We were very happy about that. And Noor especially went by herself to South Africa.

[00:11:55] She met investors who were very interested in our project. These two points about participating to programs and the competition, uh, were very important for us. Hard challenges, and we did our best to win. There is another point. Our third co-founder went and participated also in South Africa in Joanne's work in an important event for deaf people in Africa.

[00:12:25] And there he presented our startup. And all the associations and the ONGs dealing with deaf people were very happy. And they are awaiting our expansion to their countries. So that demonstrates that our platform is very important to deaf people. And our market is more important than just Tunisia. Yeah. Thank you for that.

[00:12:54] It's clear that, uh, you have a strong mission, vision, and also making huge impact in terms of inclusivity. So what advice would you give to say employers looking to create a more inclusive hiring process for people who are hard of hearing? Uh, okay. So I want to tell you that at Deaf Square, we are not just a career accelerator for deaf people.

[00:13:22] We are also organizing events such as hackathons to encourage more people, especially students, to work and develop solutions based on AI and destinated to deaf people. And we are helping them. And we found that there are not a lot of, uh, startups for deaf people.

[00:13:48] So for example, in Tunisia and also in Africa, uh, most of the people stop going to school because there are not specialized schools or support, uh, for them. So for example, now we are organizing, uh, this weekend, uh, hackathons for an accessible education.

[00:14:10] Uh, we want other startups to work on education to help deaf children continue their studies. I can say to entrepreneurs that want to work in impact fields, and especially for deaf people, it's a noble cause. It is not easy like any other project, but knowing that you are helping people will make you more resilient.

[00:14:40] You know, when you, when you see the smile on deaf kids, that's make you very, very happy and gives you motivation and help you continue. Um, you mentioned something interesting there in terms of the hackathons that you organize.

[00:14:55] So maybe if we look at the technology and the training approach that you use, uh, look specifically at the platform, how much technology in terms of things such as AI is incorporated into the platform that you use? Uh, so our platform is mainly based on AI.

[00:15:17] We use AI for, uh, three points, uh, the adaptive learning, uh, where, for example, uh, we, uh, we will use the emotion recognition to know when our students feel uncomfortable to try to always improve our solution. Uh, also we use AI in a job matching where our students or our users can post their CVs and the companies post their, uh,

[00:15:47] employment offers. And there is an AI that matches these two elements. And the most important part in AI is our avatar where we are still working on it. We have a good team specialized in AI. The avatar is a virtual trainer using sign language. This is the most important project in AI. Brilliant.

[00:16:12] So looking at the adaptive learning feature, how does the adaptive learning feature of your platform benefit the learners? What value does it add in terms of the learners experience? Yes. So now there are no online platforms special for deaf people. So we don't have the data about how this platform should be.

[00:16:38] So thanks to adaptive learning, we can each time know what are the points that we have to improve, to make it a better experience, a better use for, uh, for our students. So, uh, our platform will be continuously improving for a better user experience for our students.

[00:17:01] So if we stick to the theme of the user experience and look at the virtual sign language trainer, what is the significance in terms of the virtual sign language trainer on the platform? Okay. So deaf people are more confident with virtual trainer because there will be no stigma or, uh, they won't feel discrimination, et cetera.

[00:17:29] They will be very at ease, uh, while learning. So, um, the second point is that they can personalize the shape of the avatar and choose, uh, the look that they prefer. The avatar will be like a teacher who is also a friend for them, especially that we are expanding. So, um, the avatar will look like the people in each country.

[00:17:59] If it is in China, he will look like a Chinese. If it is, for example, in the UAE, it will look like people from there. Also in Africa, it is very important for the psychology of deaf people that their teacher or trainer looks like them. And also before developing the avatar, we ask deaf people about their preferences and most of them prefer to have a virtual trainer.

[00:18:29] I'd assume one of the ultimate goals of the platform and all of this innovative features is to match the talent with employers. So how does DeafSquare approach matching talents with employers? You know, what makes your approach different or unique? Oh, yes. So as you know, most companies don't have an adapted recruitment process for people with disability.

[00:18:54] So we help companies in that point for, uh, the recruitment process. Also, they don't know where to find talented people with disabilities with the requirement they need. So we have our database. So they can instantly find the profile they are looking for.

[00:19:18] So the job matching module is designed to connect employers and people with disabilities according to the requirements. So, as you mentioned, you help companies. You're currently helping a lot of companies where you're active now in Tunisia. So what are your expansion plans into other African markets? Will the platform be available in different African markets in the near future? Uh, yes.

[00:19:46] So right now we're only operating on Tunis, on Tunisia, but we are at the same time kind of like looking for interested students in North Africa. But our next, let's say big market that we're going to target is going to be the South African market. So since like Sunia said, we've already established contact there with SSOs. So incubators and investors, and we have the support there.

[00:20:14] We have the network there as well as also deaf associations who will provide for us and our users. So yeah, that's the scoop. South Africa is our next market. Exciting. Yeah. So what opportunities do you see with the expansion into South Africa? What new opportunities would that open up to the platform and the users? So for South Africa, we chose it for two main reasons.

[00:20:42] The first reason is that there is a considerable amount of deaf and hard of hearing people there. So deaf and hard of hearing across all demographic, all demographics, it's 4 million. Yes. And just people who are deaf across all demographics, it's 400,000. So that is quite a considerable amount of people with hearing disabilities to approach with our solution. So that's reason number one.

[00:21:10] Reason number two is the fact that South Africa has schools that are specifically designed to teach people with hearing disabilities. So there's, I believe there's around 40, 44 something schools across all South Africa.

[00:21:29] So that means that deaf and hard of hearing people there have a certain amount of education that will allow them to understand the course material and to be able to learn the different courses we offer in IT. So yeah, South Africa and deaf people in South Africa just seemed like a perfect user. Let's say they fit the user profile.

[00:21:54] So, so yeah, we, we, we chose South Africa and it was, it was very hard to choose the next market because there were so many interesting kind of markets. There was a part from South Africa, there was also Indonesia, China, India, the U S France. And it was just kind of like a lot of different markets that were kind of like calling our name and be like, come over here, come over here.

[00:22:19] But in the end we did choose South Africa for the reasons that I mentioned. And yeah. So I guess you've been through a very interesting journey in terms of from starting up to winning a lot of these recognitions and achievements. So actually looking at market expansion. So during this process, are there any interesting insights that you've taken or learned from the African startup space?

[00:22:43] You know, maybe more towards people's understanding of tech that is shaped for people with disabilities. We didn't notice that a lot of people ask us, especially in our beginning, they would ask us, Oh, why do you just target deaf people? Why don't you also target blind people as well? And we had to like explain over and over that we specifically chose deaf people.

[00:23:10] Like you can't, you can't put these two different types of disabilities, like, like being blind and being deaf. You can't really put them in the same startup, especially at the beginning, because they have two very different means of learning. Um, and we had to like explain that blind people can actually attend, um, courses that are already, that are already existing.

[00:23:36] You know, they, all they would need to do is have course material written in braille, but they still can hear, but deaf people cannot hear. So it's even more confusing for them because they're just seeing people move and they're not really understanding the information.

[00:23:50] Uh, so yeah, definitely in the market or just in the entrepreneurial scene, being a startup that targets a specific type of disability, we do have to not only do our work as a startup and create and sell our product. But also we have kind of like a responsibility to shed light and raise awareness about, uh, about our topic. And so we're not just entrepreneurs. We also have to be, uh, advocates.

[00:24:19] So I would say like, we definitely need more startups that work on specific disabilities and just kind of like focus all of their energy on a specific disability instead of like choosing like something very broad, like, oh, we're a startup that targets all types of disabilities. Because each type of disability needs a specific way of dealing with it.

[00:24:46] Uh, and sometimes within the same disability, there's so many different, like it varies at different degrees. So you can't really give the same product to all the people in that same disability. Like, yeah, like even with, with deaf people, we can't just give our courses in one sign language to all deaf people. No, we have to give our courses in different sign languages, depending on, on the sign language that is used in that specific country or that specific region.

[00:25:16] And so I think something insightful that I would say is pick something like pick a disability, focus on it and just try to really not be intimidated or, or, um, or influenced by what other people that aren't in your field by what they're saying. So I guess in the space that you're working in, it's very much focused on people who are hard of hearing, people with disabilities.

[00:25:44] So what I was going to ask is, are you seeing a growth in the number of startups, especially on the continent or specifically on the continent, who are entering the tech space to address or find solutions for people with disabilities? Um, in fact, most of African startups are focusing on FinTech, health tech, or green tech. There are a few numbers of startups focusing on impact. I don't know.

[00:26:14] I don't know. Maybe they think that the market is small, but no, the, the market is here. As, uh, Noor told you, there is a huge market for deaf people. We were exhibiting in JITEX last October, and we found, uh, there are not a lot of startups dealing with disabilities. So the market is very important.

[00:26:40] Uh, also the U S I think that entrepreneurs, uh, should be encouraged to work on disabilities. It's not a small market. There are a lot of subjects on which they can work while organizing the hackathons. Each time there are new ideas, we can have a lot of startups. We can have a value chain to help each other.

[00:27:06] Each one, uh, uh, works on a specific sector and together we can, uh, help each other. It is a very important. Yes. Uh, I hope that more startups work on, uh, disabilities, especially the deaf disability. Fantastic.

[00:27:25] So as we mentioned, we need more startups to enter the space and focus specifically on specific disabilities, but looking ahead, where do you see the space in Africa in terms of how tech is used to support people with disabilities? Uh, yes. The, the, with the artificial intelligence, we can do anything to develop solutions for deaf people.

[00:27:52] All the things that were impossible before now are possible. Uh, you know, when the first time came the smartphone, it was a revolution in the world of the deaf people because the only way for them to communicate is to use sign language. So the use of videos. So with smartphone, it was a delivery for them to communicate.

[00:28:18] So just with the smartphone, imagine now with artificial intelligence, all the solution we can develop for them. Uh, you have to be near to the deaf community and to, uh, understand their needs because they don't think like us. They have a different culture. Uh, you can't imagine by yourself a solution.

[00:28:42] You have to, uh, brainstorm with them to really understand, uh, what they need and to validate your idea with them. For example, at deaf square, all the team is either deaf or hard of hearing because we believe that we bring the technology, but they bring the idea. They validate the solution. It is very important to be near to the deaf community.

[00:29:10] If I could add to the question, like, I think that tech wise, the tech is available. Sometimes we, we even don't know how, how advanced the tech is until you like actually go and see it and talk to the people of the field. Um, but I think, you know, if, if people in the continent, in the African continent invest more in, in learning about tech,

[00:29:34] tech and, um, you know, maybe governments and schools would update their computer science programs or tech programs, or just have like tech summits. And then the youth can just attend those tech summits and understand how advanced the tech is. Then they will be, I think that definitely people on the continent would be inspired to find solutions and to create products and services that served people with disabilities and help them have an easier,

[00:30:03] and to be able to do everyday tasks without having to use so much of your energy or like rely on other people or otherwise you'll be like stuck. So, so yeah, just the tech is available. That's for sure.

[00:30:24] But I don't think that in the African continent, we don't have access to, um, we don't have access to the information as much as let's say in Europe or in North America or in Asia.

[00:30:40] So, um, so yeah, I think it's just like, give us the information, give us access to, to the tech, and you would be surprised by how creative and just how innovative the solutions that are going to come out of the, of the continent are going to be. I mean, we've already seen this in, in, in the first edition of the hackathon that we did. We put computer science students and data analysts and people who are just amateurs of AI or whatever.

[00:31:09] We put them in a room with one deaf person. Some of these people have never met a deaf person in their life. They have no idea what the challenges of deaf people are. And in the span of like 24 hours, they have managed to not only understand the problems, but also find really innovative solutions that could easily be done, be made or be done by the tech available. Now, some of them have even thought further and have created their own tech. And this was just in 24 hours.

[00:31:39] So imagine what we could do if we created a space where entrepreneurs and, um, just programmers and developers and people of tech, if we can put them in a space where they have access to information, where they have really good support. Imagine what they can do, what they can achieve. I agree. Yes. I can also add something.

[00:32:02] In Tunisia, we have an incubator that has a program specific for startups with social impact and a solution for disabilities. I think that if more donors focus on such programs all over Africa to encourage people to work on and find the solutions for disabilities,

[00:32:28] such programs will be really important to develop such solutions. Quote of the week. As people, we often have quotes, mantras, proverbs, or affirmations that keep us going when times are good or when times are challenging. Do you have one that you can share with us today? Ooh, that's a good one. Um, I have a few lyrics from songs that I like to kind of repeat to myself.

[00:32:57] Um, depending on the situation. Yeah. For me, it's also a song. Songs are good. Songs are good. Some of the best quotes come from songs. Uh, it's the one Republic song I lived because before beginning this journey, I used to be a mother and to work and I didn't do anything else.

[00:33:24] And one day I discovered that this is not life. So you have to dream to do things to help people, to do mistakes. This is the real life. So, uh, the song I lived every day I heard, uh, because it shows that, um, even if you break your bones, this is real life. Yes.

[00:33:49] I think I'm gonna go with, so it's a Taylor Swift song called You're on Your Own Kid. And, uh, she has part of the bridge at the end of the song where she goes, everything you lose is a step you take. So make the friendship bracelets, take the moment and taste it. You've got no reason to be afraid.

[00:34:13] Um, and yeah, that entire song is just, it's, it's a, it's a very beautiful song because it just reminds you that even in the moments where you feel, where like you feel alone, you have always been alone. And you will always be alone. But I remember one time at a graduation speech, she said, the bad news is you're on your own now, but the good news is you're on your own now.

[00:34:40] So, so yeah, so it's definitely something that's very empowering and like, just because you're on your own, you don't have to be afraid and you can face it. And yeah, definitely that. I totally understand. I guess that's something that resonates in terms of being a entrepreneur. You know, it can be a lonely space. Um, you have a lot of decisions to make, um, a lot of responsibility and I guess working in a mother daughter team, at least you have the two of you that you can kind of confide in and kind of rely on.

[00:35:10] So yeah, fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And we've come to the end of today's conversation. Thank you, Noah. Thank you, Sonia for sharing such an inspiring journey with us today. You know, you do some great work in terms of bridging the gap between people who are hard of hearing and employers using this very adaptive and innovative technology. So it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and thank you for sharing your story and journey with us.

[00:35:39] Thank you for having us. Beautiful. Fantastic. And we will speak soon. And looking forward to hearing all the great news in terms of your expansion into South Africa and all the other things you have planned in the near future. Yes, with pleasure. Goodbye. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share or tell a friend about it.

[00:36:04] You can also rate, review us in Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast. Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.