African Art on the Global Stage: The Growth and Evolution of African Art with Touria El Glaoui

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast. I'm the daughter of a Moroccan artist called Hassan El Glaoui. I'm saying that because it will explain my interest and my vocation to the contemporary art world. The aim of the platform was really to promote the diversity of experiences and perspective

[00:00:19] in contemporary African art. For us, our catalogue was always a reference to artists that were presenting at the fair as a lot of those artists had not yet been published in books. For example, this is the stereotype Senegal Traum is understanding that we were

[00:00:34] trying to fight. You know, people had a very narrow idea of what African art could be. Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential. You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast with your host Terser Adamu.

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today, we have Touria El Glaoui, who is founding director of 154 Contemporary African Art Fair, which is the leading

[00:01:17] international art fair dedicated to contemporary art from Africa and its diaspora. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast. Touria, how are you? I'm good, Terser. Thank you for having me. As always, I was hoping you can start us off by introducing yourself and telling us a bit more

[00:01:37] about Touria. Well, my name is Touria El Glaoui. I'm a French-Moroccan citizen. I was born in Morocco where I grew up. I'm the daughter of a Moroccan artist called Hassan El Glaoui.

[00:01:49] I'm saying that because it will explain a bit my interest and my vocation to the contemporary art world. I had my first, I want to say, art education through my father. And I had in 2013 decided to take the entrepreneurship route and create 154 Contemporary African Art Fair. Fantastic, nice

[00:02:11] and concise. So you've given us great insight into who you are, what you do, born in Morocco from a family of artists, which is amazing. As we've mentioned in the introduction, you are the

[00:02:24] founder of 154. So I was hoping you could take us into a bit of a description in terms of what is 154? What is the work that you're currently doing inside and outside of Africa? So 154 is an international fair dedicated to contemporary African arts. We currently have

[00:02:44] three editions, one in London coming up very soon at Somerset House, one in New York and one in Marrakech. It started all in London in 2013. The aim of the platform was really to promote the diversity of experiences and perspective in contemporary African arts. In Africa, our fair

[00:03:06] in Marrakech has a much more incredibly robust public program which will collaborate with many local institutions, organizations and in this regard the work I want to say is about engaging the

[00:03:18] local cultural community. While in New York and London our fairs are, I want to say, time to coincide with Free's Art Fair which is a much larger international art fair. But I want to say that in these cities our work is really about promoting contemporary African artists and

[00:03:37] artists from the African diaspora to more, I want to say a traditional contemporary art audience. And that means we are aiming to engage with international collectors, creators, well-known institutions on the global stage. Brilliant. You mentioned 154, you have events in London, New York, Marrakech and the aim

[00:04:06] is to promote African contemporary art. So what did you see or experience that gave you the idea that such an event such as 154 was needed in the global art space? So when I first started in 2011 thinking and working around creating this platform,

[00:04:28] I have to say the landscape was very, very different. Actually contemporary African artists and African artists from the diaspora were not at all engaged. If not, they were completely excluded from the contemporary histories or narratives in Europe. So I feel like this is

[00:04:46] definitely something that we were able to see burgeoning with the creation of 154 to make it part of the international art circuit. And this space really was to make sure that we were bridging this gap of inclusivity between artists from this whole

[00:05:06] continent that had been ignored and the international contemporary art space. So in my view, we were able to participate heavily in the engagement of I want to say an international audience but also of art producers, art exhibition producers to maybe think

[00:05:26] that something was wrong in not including going ignoring a full continent as part of their work. And I think 154 because it's very focused on the, I want to say African contemporary art market. So we talk about prices, we talk about money, about secondary markets,

[00:05:45] that brought real interest in terms of visibility but also about considering this full continent as a potential investments from people, from all the collectors, all the infrastructures that were keen on collecting contemporary African art.

[00:06:04] So I think 154 became and because with the vocation we started in New York and in London, in London first and then New York to make sure that we had this international visibility

[00:06:17] which was very important and I feel missing from the great creativity we had on the African continent. Amazing. So as you mentioned when you started in 2011, African artists were excluded and you wanted to bridge that gap. So could you take us through in terms of what weighs 154 bridges

[00:06:39] that gap between African artists and the global art market? Well, I think the two fairs London and New York which in a way for people who are not at all in the art world or two main international art economic hubs for the art world.

[00:06:56] I mean people don't consider it but the art industry is bringing a lot of billions a year to the global economy. And I think the fact that those wild possible origins had no engagement

[00:07:08] with contemporary African art probably through access first of all a lot of people don't go to Africa from those people based in the US or based in Europe to get access to those artists who to

[00:07:20] be honest were extremely talented and full of creativity. They didn't have a strong social presence. I think we were able to work on that, we're able to connect I guess the international audience who has the buying power of collecting those artists to those artists from the continent

[00:07:39] and the African diaspora. And I think the network of collectors and curators and institutions as well as gallery started for the past I want to say decade started an interest and understanding

[00:07:50] that this was in a way wrong. I mean I think where we are lucky with the art world is that it's a very curious world, like collectors are very keen to discover the next task here

[00:08:00] for example or the next big thing that will increase in value or be appreciated in value and then sold at auction. So in that way collectors are very curious and very excited about something

[00:08:13] new so I think one of the challenges was really bringing access and I think this is where London and New York became instrumental was that we were bringing art to the international stage.

[00:08:23] They didn't have to go back to the continent to find the artist huge continent they probably wouldn't have been able to do that but the reality is that as soon as you talk prices, art markets, potential appreciation of the art, secondary market, people start giving you

[00:08:40] the right kind of attention and I think this is what 154 was able to do and if you think about it we do three events a year two happening in those main international economy hubs and one

[00:08:54] happening on the continent and in that irregularity and consistency of doing it three events every year you know you have the chance to have the press talking about those events every year putting

[00:09:05] those names of artists on the map every year three times a year and it makes a difference after a while you know collectors start thinking about it start you know being very familiar with names and galleries coming from the African continent and that makes

[00:09:19] the possibility to have the voice of those artists louder and more integrated to what's happening in contemporary art around the world. So as you mentioned access and strong social presence are some of the challenges that are or were faced by African artists so in terms of

[00:09:39] finding solutions to those challenges what impact do you believe that 154 has had on the recognition and visibility of African artists in the international scene? Well I definitely think that the possibility of seeing under the same roof a large group of artists coming from the

[00:09:58] African diaspora or the African continent really helped even institutions you know like museums around the world to be able to access those artists and be more knowledgeable of those artists I think part of our fair since 2013 was also to create I want to say an artistic forum

[00:10:18] where we had a program in alignment with our fair creating education around art coming from the continent and the diaspora and that really helped you know giving full context for those

[00:10:30] I want to say curators but also students studying you know art today as well as collectors and I think that was I think an important contribution so our website our catalog our fairs are all made

[00:10:44] at the same time for education so for example I would say that usually at art fair you might have a catalog you know that explained the galleries presented at the fair for us our catalog was

[00:10:56] always a reference to artists that were presenting at the fair as a lot of those artists had not been published in books for example sometimes they didn't have a website you know so for us our

[00:11:07] catalog became a tool to promote those artists to make sure that you know if people wanted to find the name of an artist with the biography where to find them you know this was possible in our

[00:11:19] catalog the program of the fair was also about choosing to highlight a curator for example and give him carte blanche to do a program around education of artists coming from that region

[00:11:32] or that diaspora so I think in terms of contribution there's a lot to do don't get me wrong you know I want to say that Africa faces a lot of challenges as you mentioned on the continent that still

[00:11:45] need to be resolved but in terms of being able to bridge some of those infrastructure I want to say problem maybe underrepresentation and maybe stereotypes of all those artists we were able to be physically on the international stage you know catering for an audience that basically had not

[00:12:05] heard of this amazing creativity from the continent and the diaspora brilliant you touched on a key point which is having African artists under one roof and also giving access to both artists

[00:12:18] and bias has made an important impact we know with impact also comes a change of perception so in your opinion how has the perception of African art evolved globally during the time you've been

[00:12:32] involved with 154 well I think when I first started then I was like you know I'm putting together platforms for contemporary African art or if I would just say the name African art you

[00:12:45] know the stereotypes were really about African art is primitivist in a way like it's about the sculpture the mask you know the spiritual aspect of all those art crafts and I think today it's

[00:12:58] still persist in terms of what people think about African art they often think about those masks and you know what you find in those very isolated galleries and museums you know where

[00:13:10] and those windows with shelves and all those very very precious masks or tools that are very old sometimes might have been looted and have like created their own debates right now about you

[00:13:23] know returning them to Africa but this is the stereotypes and I want to say the cultural misunderstanding that we were trying to fight you know people had a very narrow idea of what

[00:13:34] African art could be you know and this is the first thing they thought about was those primitive I want to say traditional pieces of art that have been very inspiring over the years by the way

[00:13:46] through a lot of very famous modern artists from around the world but people's I guess view or notion of African art was really related to this so you highlighted the positive changes in perception and people's stereotypes so if we look outside of 154 what do you believe have been

[00:14:05] some of the key drivers behind the changes of perception I think what we've seen in the past you know in terms of what has been a real change is definitely having major institutions

[00:14:19] like the Tate for example here in the UK or MoMA or the Met in New York you know considering solo shows of African artists over the last 10 years which they never did before including more contemporary African artists or African diasporan artists in their collections

[00:14:38] having international fairs inviting African galleries you know to participate I think I want to say also having those major auction houses like Christie's or Sotheby's even Bonoam's you know creating dedicated events to sell contemporary African art or African diasporan art

[00:14:56] those are signs of real change and real understanding of appreciation of those artists but I think also scholarly you know the literature on African contemporary art we've seen books you know being created by Fahidun which is like one of those top art publications

[00:15:14] or having students now you know choosing in art school to do their thesis on contemporary African art all those things have really been developed in the last 10 years and I think those are the first

[00:15:27] things that shows you you know that first of all I want to say this contemporary African art world is here to stay but people are paying attention the journey is long but there's

[00:15:38] definitely a shift and something that people could say you know will stay will progress will be better and better in terms of attention over the next few years interesting interesting so with the changes

[00:15:52] of perception comes an increase in access interest and demand I know this is quite an open question but what does the growing global demand for African art currently look like? I think having artists from the African diaspora or Africa participate in unbelievable important

[00:16:14] shows like the Biennial of Venice you know or being part of like the main I want to say central piece of an auction this is what it will look like you know and it starts to look like

[00:16:26] you have this growing demand for African art you have prices that never been reached before at auctions of those artists you have blue chip galleries that never represented African artists you know now putting in there I want to say stables of artists you know African artists

[00:16:42] you know as part of their list of artists that they will propose to the rest of the world so I think the positioning for us also on the continent is like we see more and more residency spaces and opportunities arising from the continent for artists from the continent

[00:16:59] and I think that's very important because it's a way of nurturing you know the future artist talent that we have on the continent and you know preparing them even better for an international

[00:17:10] excitement and being part of this world you know and I think this is something that was really missing and I think today having this growing global demand around the world makes you know

[00:17:22] even local infrastructure starting to develop I think probably in the last 10 years I've seen a lot of private foundation opening up on the African continent to nurture some of those artists you

[00:17:34] know we can say there's a lack of infrastructure for artists on the continent but like we've seen you know private foundation private museum appearing all over Africa and as well as residency spaces trying to create opportunities for those artists and I think that's part of

[00:17:52] being led by the fact that there's a growing global demand around the world for those artists you highlighted that African artists are now participating in international exhibitions galleries and auction houses such as sort of bees so who is actually buying the artists

[00:18:09] is still sold to foreigners international businesses who are the customers for African art at the moment so I can only speak from our collector base you know because everybody is very secretive about who comes and who buys in terms of what's happening in New York and in London

[00:18:26] maybe because those fairs are based in those countries you know where they're very international so I want to say that our collector base is pretty pretty evenly split between Europe and North America but I would say that there's a proportion that is still small you know about African

[00:18:44] collectors that is growing every year but for the moment I want to say that our majority of collectors are coming from I want to say the West and what is very encouraging in this

[00:18:56] matter is that we have a lot a lot of rising young collectors that are coming from I want to say the African diaspora based in the UK you know who are representing this potential income you

[00:19:08] know that are coming along and I think that in Africa in the same way we see governments and companies being more interested and more engaging and buying not enough but still you know we see some

[00:19:23] countries putting an allocating budget for collections of museums but we see also corporate companies you know developing their own collections and that is very supportive to the local ecosystems you know around the artist in local countries on the continent but it is definitely

[00:19:41] not enough knowing how many new young billionaires we have in Africa and it will be a fantastic that we see definitely leadership you know in terms of collecting making sure that some of those great

[00:19:54] pieces stays on the continent and make sure that one day this infrastructure is in museums you know in their countries that they will be amazing collections on the continent as well. Fantastic so as you mentioned majority collectors are coming from the West but you

[00:20:10] are seeing a rising customer base from the young African diaspora so is this growing demand as a whole is it driven by the love of African art or are people seeing it as a investable asset class?

[00:20:25] I think it's a combination of both there's definitely an increasing literature around the field in nurturing you know the passion of the work of African and African diasporan artist among collectors but and it's very positive and we can see you know the increase in demand

[00:20:42] and I mean over the years we've seen some artists you know raising huge value at auctions which makes a lot of collectors seeing it as an investable asset class but my own advice on this is that

[00:20:57] we've seen artists over 10 years you know that we've seen at the fair you know increase sometimes 300% in terms of value from year to year but we've seen also some artists you know

[00:21:09] they continue to be artists appreciated but not as much so I mean for my understanding it is a much interesting way of thinking of investing thinking that you are supporting artists and an ecosystem rather than thinking you are investing in an asset class just because

[00:21:28] we don't want at this point to have too many people speculating and speculation to be honest is really bad for the growth of appreciation for those artists so as much as we've seen in the

[00:21:40] past some artists growing really really fast in the secondary market like auctions and we don't want this to grow too fast without a consistent you know development of the artists behind it because what we can see as well as those artists crashing down in terms of appreciation

[00:21:58] two years down the line or three years down the line because there was too many speculation around them I agree I agree so as we've emphasized during our conversation African art is now getting access to

[00:22:11] the global market so if we take a few steps back historically African artists did not receive the support which they probably should have from the global arts community from your opinion

[00:22:23] what was the reason for that well I feel that you know the story of modern and contemporary art I think African art has always been very exoticized you know in terms of it's always been very exotic

[00:22:38] you know in the way it was pictured position you know from the west I think around also the 19th century with the imperialism and the so-called you know a scramble for Africa I think there

[00:22:50] was a lot of issues like looting and I want to say that the interest and the fascination has always been there but perhaps a lack of respect surrounding the continent for cultural object was also existing

[00:23:06] I think also the way modern is categorized around the world for modern artists or international artists not specifically for African artists has always been around the second world war you know or around those dates you know well for us I think when I'm talking about the African continent

[00:23:26] a lot of our artists are much younger than this and I think that our I want to say modern art is really around the independence of those African countries you know so I mean it's very difficult

[00:23:38] to explain but there's been like a sort of rebellion about all those artists that were in a way pushed to get a western education when it came to you know being trained in arts or being painters you know they had to have this education or profiling of

[00:23:57] similar to western you know artists and I think with the independence of those countries this seems like there's been like this this movement of like kind of rejecting everything that was you know around a western training or a western way of painting and I think I want to

[00:24:16] say that a lot of those artists that are today very very appreciated you know at auctions that in the secondary market like at places like Bonhams or Sotheby's are like for example

[00:24:28] all those artists from the 60s or 70s that were part of a moment where they did produce quite a lot but like it is those kind of geeses of artists from the 60s or this period that is

[00:24:41] really what after at auctions so you will have you know in Nigeria like the Ben in one world this world you know who is doing extremely well at auctions which is now really recognized well

[00:24:55] maybe early on it was less I want to say probably visibility first and second you know it is now appreciated by local collectors from those countries you know so for example you have a whole

[00:25:09] Nigerian collector base really looking into buying modern artists from that period of time and really appreciative of those artists but I have to say they were quite ignored when maybe international boner artists had had that moment and visibility and you know now that you see them sell

[00:25:30] extremely high at auction we didn't have that moment for African artists and today the problematic is a bit more difficult because a lot of those artists who passed away have not structured their

[00:25:44] state properly so we could go back you know and find archives and you know references and and kind of like have provenance of those works you know so you still find them on the

[00:25:57] auction market but the due diligence is much harder than it should be you know normally so that's you know one of the things that we want to make sure that you know artists who are

[00:26:08] reaching out you know maybe another age now are making sure that they do really well like you know leave here I want to say state so for you know the work to not lose its value but also

[00:26:19] to be able to you know get archives for those artists for the future generations as you detailed the lack of support was linked to the lack of respect for the continent which probably diluted the importance of African art so what do you believe is the importance of

[00:26:36] African arts in terms of its ability to disseminate ideas and cultural conversations around Africa artwork are often a representories for cultural historical spiritual knowledge you know often they show diversity of African cultures tradition beliefs you know I think 154 you know

[00:27:02] as a title I didn't mention that you know in the beginning but part of it was to underline the multiplicities of all those art coming from those 54 countries but I think art has this

[00:27:14] power to give a voice for artists of today but also for artists to comment on political social environmental issues and to challenge of course the stereotypes you know held by the west

[00:27:28] in the wider I want to say world so I think this is why those cultural conversation are important and this is also the power of those artists to make their message much more louder in terms of you know having their own voice and that's I think what helps

[00:27:48] and support you know the dissemination of ideas and create conversation you know and create a discussion like an education more knowledge on all those things so I think this is the role of

[00:28:01] African art and it's actually doing it you know in general by connecting people even when you talk about important and instrumental issues that need to be discussed I think art does it

[00:28:13] in a very very intelligent way brilliant you touched on key points which is the power of art to highlight political social and environmental issues so I was wondering if we could go a bit

[00:28:26] deeper into that in terms of what impact or influence can art have in Africa that transcends beyond art itself well one of the things that art can play a role in is and we've seen it

[00:28:39] you know a lot at the fair and we've seen it you know in terms of the type of art we see is definitely affirming and communicating on identities this is something that has been

[00:28:51] very very prominent in what we see in the artworks it can help challenge as I said you know the narratives that are often contributing to exclusion and also this is where we see how education is important and how art can play a different commercial level but also provide

[00:29:12] some economic empowerment you know so I think it is definitely a communicating tool it's an educational tool and I think it's definitely something that bring empowerment to a whole economy or a whole continent and this is how I see it I agree I agree so you

[00:29:32] know for art to have a bigger impact it needs a bigger audience so if we look at your reach you're currently active in London New York and Marrakech do you have any plans to expand your

[00:29:44] reach and impact to more iconic cities um of course I do you know but brilliant with the fair being very I want to see keen on being sustainable you know and not being acting as a charity or

[00:30:00] having a profile as a charity but rather function as a sustainable organization I as much as my goal is really to have two or three other locations you know in Europe but also in Asia and maybe in

[00:30:17] another one in the US you know and definitely if I could I would have two on the African continent but the reality is that you know they're all an entity that are supposed to be profitable so

[00:30:29] you know like every destination is to be profitable and for that it demands that we have the right number of people working for the the organization and make sure that there's a balance in terms

[00:30:42] of what we can do and how much profit this business is bringing in terms of supporting a new addition in another country and in a way I have to make a case to make it work you know if

[00:30:53] it doesn't um because we don't have the resources or we don't have enough galleries supporting or collectors supporting you know on the continent or even in another destination around the world

[00:31:05] I wouldn't do it and I think we've grown you know very fast because part of our mission was really about accelerating this integration of artists that have been completely ignored you

[00:31:18] know over the years and the hubs the international art hubs of the world but also we learned as we grow how important it is to make sure that we're not eating faster that we can chew you

[00:31:32] know like because it is very important to be able to be sustainable so I mean to answer to your question yes I want to be in two or three more destinations but we are doing it a bit more

[00:31:46] carefully nowadays because you know we had also very difficult two years with covid you know and putting everything back you know and so we are in a very good place now to make those decisions

[00:31:58] but we had to wait a bit in terms of where to go next to make sure that all the three fairs were running you know as they were running pre-covid wise words indeed you mentioned that

[00:32:09] you're keen on being sustainable and also we know expanding to new markets requires capital investment and it's key for the event to be profitable if you don't mind could you talk

[00:32:21] us through how the event is financed or sponsored of course so basically the fairs are like I want to say real estate markets you know so basically each fair rented out by the galleries so I provide

[00:32:38] the space the PR the collector base coming to the fair and the galleries will in a way rent booths from 154 to be able to exhibit their artist and then they will sell their artist

[00:32:55] and this is you know our collaboration so it is in a way partly operated through the finances of those rental booths you know and then we have an additional income that is coming from sponsorship

[00:33:10] so for example in London we have the chance to partner with a kotsy which is an international cosmetic brand with Nando's which people might know here in the UK and Chris which is an auction

[00:33:23] house you know who has been a global partner of 154 for now a few years and so this is the cherry on top of the cake you know having sponsors to be able to support you know the operational cost of the

[00:33:37] fairs but it is very difficult but this is how the fair is financed so mainly from the galleries revenues you know renting the booths and then when we're in lucky years having sponsors to

[00:33:50] support as well. Interesting interesting so you're giving us great insight into how the event is funded by collaborations with galleries and sponsors so if you look at the sponsorship side do you feel that it is a lot more difficult to secure sponsorship for an African arts initiative

[00:34:08] than it would be for a more western art based initiative? Well because the fairs are based you know for two of them in New York and in London and not on the continent I feel it's a bit

[00:34:18] more difficult to get brands that want to be so focused you know on a particular market however I found that the sponsors you know were able to confirm for several years like Christie's, Nando's, Coty you know have been sponsors that looked for us and for what we

[00:34:36] were representing so in the most exciting world I would love to have more African sponsors to get the support from the continent but at the same time I understand when it comes to the fairs

[00:34:49] in New York and in London that it might not be their scope of visibility so I think sponsors who have I guess a brand strategy you know our association or collaboration that are looking

[00:35:02] for us makes more sense in terms of where they are but I do feel that having a more neutral I guess offering in terms of that safe tomorrow 154 was presenting you know an international market

[00:35:15] you will have more international sponsors willing to do it now we've limited to sponsors who actually are looking into this alignment of having quite a diverse audience being associated with

[00:35:27] I want to say new movements in a way you know we have more of those kind of sponsors and then I'm very hopeful that you know contemporary or corporate African companies might come along a bit

[00:35:40] later I know that when we are in Marrakesh and on the African continent we are easily attracting Moroccan sponsors because we are there we're physically in an event that they can send their

[00:35:50] clients so they can send their group of guests you know to the fair and that might be one of the appeal of being a sponsor to an event on the continent and they might not find the same

[00:36:01] offering by sponsoring it in London or in New York because their clients are not based there so you mentioned that sponsors that have I guess a brand strategy focused on Africa and also want

[00:36:12] an association with a new movement is a trend that you're seeing so sticking on the theme of trends are there any emerging trends that you're seeing in contemporary African art that you're currently excited about listen we've been like so lucky in terms of the incredible range of

[00:36:31] artists we're able to show and also share the traditional you know crafting techniques there's a lot of artists I'm excited about we have this Ugandan artist called Sana Kateshaw he's creating the semi I want to say abstract paintings made with recycled paper

[00:36:50] acrylic paint natural dyes and those traditional fibers but there's also like great South African artists this this one participating this year called Zanzini Mara Sela who uses you know historical materials often you know the Kaffir Linen and you know she tried to make photo montage techniques

[00:37:13] and create I want to say narrative with red dust you know so I mean we've been like so lucky having also Jasper an artist we have this Welsh Ghanaian artist called Anya Pencil you know who

[00:37:26] works with textile and sculpture it's more her practices around the rug hooking embroidery tapestry but then we have very traditional painters you know coming from all over the African continent who are amazing painters but we also have ceramics I know this year we have one really

[00:37:48] looking forward to it called Adam Adams yes ceramic legacies of colonialism and westernization on the African continent how it impacts Nigeria and you'll see that in her artwork so for for me to be honest trends I don't really believe in I believe in like good work you know

[00:38:09] but we do see a lot of photography this year at the fair we have some amazing photographer that will be present and the scope is so large I think you know one of the things and comments

[00:38:22] gets from people visiting the fair is that they're so impressed by the creativity and the uniqueness of what they see at the fair and I think that comes from the diversity but also

[00:38:32] also the creativity of all those nations you know and the Jasper are being inspired by their historical descent and including into their life and their context today so I think for whoever is coming to visit the fair they'll be extremely impressed by the range of contemporary artists

[00:38:50] we have present at 154 fantastic so if we look past current trends and look into the future future of Africa I know this is a very open question but where do you see Africa's art industry

[00:39:03] on the global stage in five years time from now I definitely want to leave with a positive note in terms of I really see Africa's art psychology grow you'll see definitely more residencies on the African continent more private foundation and public foundations acting as art spaces on

[00:39:21] the continent and I know about a few projects of museums opening up in the last two to five years you know on the continent so that will be very exciting we are having all those discussions

[00:39:33] of repatriating all those looting objects as well you know to the continent so I think we'll see definitely that happening quite a lot and I'm hoping to see more commercial galleries you know

[00:39:45] that are still very rare on the continent in some of the countries we are covering you know sometimes we're dealing with one gallery for one country to be able to present and represent artists

[00:39:56] from their country like for example for a country like Ethiopia it's ridiculous that there's only one international country doing this you know I mean there's countries that have more galleries like Nigeria, Morocco, Tunisia but we're still dealing with huge country with very very limited

[00:40:14] numbers of galleries so I think that's I think where we'll be in five years time you know you might talk about a city that has one gallery today that has 10 galleries in five years time or

[00:40:25] 15 galleries in time and that will change completely the market as well and the nurturing of the market so I hope this is where we're going and when it comes to 154 I hope that you know we still have

[00:40:35] a role to play and be in a few destinations to still give access to countries that doesn't have access to contemporary African art fantastic thank you for that quote of the week

[00:40:47] as people we often have quotes mantras, proverbs or affirmations that keep us going when times are good or when times are challenging do you have one that you can share with us today? So I think I love this one because I know that my organization my entrepreneurship journey

[00:41:05] would have not been possible without my team you know so I really like this one because it really reflects that if you want to go fast go learn if you want to go far go together

[00:41:16] and I think for me this is one that reflects really what my work is all about as we're all first of all trying to represent Africa as a we rather than as a I but also from a team perspective all this amazing

[00:41:30] work that we're able to develop for 10 years you know would have not been possible without a strong team. I mean it's great to be a visionary you know I have an idea but it doesn't take you

[00:41:41] very far if you don't have the right team to help you implement it. I agree 100% thank you for sharing that and I think it's very fitting so as we've come to the closer to today's conversation I was

[00:41:54] wondering if you have any closing remarks for an a course to action for people who are interested in African art or interested in the work that you're doing at 154. Well the first thing is come

[00:42:06] visit us you know we're taking place in a few days from the 12th to the 15th of October 2023 at Somerset House so there's going to be like an amazing 62 galleries you know showing amazing

[00:42:19] work from the different part of the continent but also from the African diaspora. We're also doing an exhibition called 154 Presents at Christie's which will take place from the 10th to the 13th of October in Mayfair and this will be very focused on Afro-Caribbean artists so for all our

[00:42:38] African Caribbean diaspora in London I think this will be an amazing show to discover as well. Thank you Tessna to have me today and to be able to share with you my passion. Fantastic thank you

[00:42:51] for joining us today and sharing your insights and the great work that you're doing in the world of contemporary African art through 154 and it's clear that you're making a positive change on the continent and outside of the continent when it comes to exhibiting and highlighting

[00:43:09] the great work of African artists. So Toria it's been a pleasure and thank you. Thank you thank you for your time today bye. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned

[00:43:23] to the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode please subscribe share or tell a friend about it. You can also rate review us in Apple Podcast or wherever you download your podcast. Thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast.