Africa to the World: Mobilising Capital, Fostering Collaboration, and Driving Change in African Tech with Anthony William Catt

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast. I've been in the tech startup and investment ecosystem pretty much all my career since university, initially starting out in European tech, investment and kind of enterprise education for entrepreneurs.

[00:00:16] And Venture54 is really focused on helping to build bridges that make those opportunities for importing, exporting out of the continent as easy as possible. So for us it's about looking at everyone in the stakeholders really understanding their problems they've identified themselves

[00:00:34] and the resources they need and trying to connect them with the right people. Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential. You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast with your host Terser Adamu.

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast where we find inspirational people who are doing inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential. Today we have Anthony William Catt, who is the founder and director of Venture54, a company on a mission to build and strengthen

[00:01:16] the international investment corridors between Africa's tech startup and investor ecosystems and the rest of the world. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast Anthony, how are you? Terser, yeah very well thank you. It's been a long time coming to have this conversation

[00:01:32] but I'm really glad to be here today so thank you for the opportunity. Yeah I think it's been about 12 months. But we're here. We're here finally great to be. Brilliant, brilliant so you've listened to the podcast before so I was hoping you could introduce yourself

[00:01:47] and tell us a bit more about Anthony William Catt. Yeah and thank you again for having me in the podcast Fantastic so well done for all the work you're doing to share stories and put

[00:01:57] spotlights on the opportunities in Africa. My name as said is Anthony William Catt, I'm UK born but very much feel African in the nature of the work I do in the places I live

[00:02:09] and work. I've been in the tech startup and investment ecosystem pretty much all my career since university so best part of a decade. Initially starting out in European tech and investment accelerators, corporate innovation and kind of enterprise education for entrepreneurs

[00:02:28] was really the first half my career UK European focused and then the second half my career more of an international flavor working across Africa from my first trip in 2015 to Sudan to Southeast Asia working with venture capital funds there looking to deploy capital

[00:02:47] at kind of series A series B level into Europe and then really where it all kind of came together this entrepreneurial training experience investment experience and kind of exposure to emerging markets in Africa was when I joined Google for startups as an investor

[00:03:03] in residence and was focused on how we got European investors to look at opportunities in the African continent and bringing out a series of them to Nigeria in 2019 to meet with

[00:03:14] companies across Africa and since then it's really led to this kind of journey to where I'm now with my company Ventures 54 as you kind of described in the introduction which is really focused around mobilizing international capital and resources from around the world into ecosystems for

[00:03:32] technology startups in Africa and alongside that building out the London Africa network which is a community of founders investors corporate government leaders operating between the UK and Africa trying to strengthen bridges for its ecosystems around technology startups.

[00:03:50] Fantastic thank you for that Anthony so you're giving us great insights into your personal and professional life and your journey in the world of tech which has led you to founding Ventures 54 so I was hoping you could tell us a bit more about Ventures 54 in terms of

[00:04:07] what its mission is in terms of strengthening international investment corridors between Africa tech ecosystems and the rest of the world. Yeah it's quite a broad statement we have on the website so it could mean a lot of things for different people and it is kind

[00:04:22] of changing for us on a kind of a quarterly basis in terms of the focus but really broadly what it is all about is obviously the we've seen over the last kind of particularly five years

[00:04:33] in the last decade a huge growth and boom in the technology start up systems across Africa particularly in what are seen as the big four markets of Egypt Nigeria Kenya and South Africa and several other emerging markets well across the continent and with that's come a lot of

[00:04:51] international interest for supporting the growth of ecosystems both from the perspective of putting resources overseas into those different markets but also supporting talent and investment opportunities that want to expand beyond the borders within Africa into Europe into North

[00:05:08] America and other such markets and Ventures 54 is really focused on helping to build bridges that make those opportunities for importing exporting out of the continent as easy as possible and this is really focused around venture capital investing so early stage

[00:05:25] investing into technology startups and we work with both sides of the table we work with international investors from around the world who are looking to better understand navigate and access opportunities for investing on the continent and then the other side of the coin we work with local

[00:05:42] investors in Africa who are looking to mobilize capital to invest or themselves into the continent and we do this through a series of interventions and support initiatives that build bridges and communities for these investors to connect one of the chubb to do research and

[00:05:59] reporting for them to better understand these markets and also then working with the startups in these markets to provide them with capacity building support for fundraising so that we can help better connect with and receive investment from these investors whether

[00:06:13] local or international so you touched on the interest and the opportunities of growing the African tech ecosystem but how did you personally become interested in building bridges between the UK and African tech startup ecosystem yeah the journey wasn't a planned one my first exposure

[00:06:34] to the African content any shape or form wasn't till about halfway through my career to date since leaving university and back in 2015 I had the opportunity to go as a volunteer as part of

[00:06:47] a government delegation to Sudan at the time someone suggested I'd go and I was really curious to explore a market that I had no idea about and also the the junior stages of my career

[00:06:59] keen to get opportunities to connect the number of people so kind of went out to Sudan with no real idea or understanding perception of the market or indeed the wider African market and out there had the opportunity to engage with the British Council and I'm the British government

[00:07:13] that we're doing various projects and capacity building in Sudan and had the opportunity to support Mashroy which is their national entrepreneurship program imagine somewhere across between the apprentice meets the dragons then oh wow entrepreneurship training go on

[00:07:27] national TV this really big kind of show but really focused around putting a spotlight on entrepreneurs within Sudan off the back of being there I remember sitting down at the end

[00:07:38] of this week I was there with the people who were running the program and said look I don't have real context or understanding for the local challenges in Sudan I've only been here a week

[00:07:46] but looking at your program design based on what we do in the UK into the ranks so I think you bet is these are things I would tweak around your design in terms of the order of

[00:07:55] certain things you do if the entrepreneurs to support them anyway gave them that feedback and I left thinking that would be that and I got a call about two weeks later saying could you

[00:08:03] come back next year and help us run this we'd love you to kind of curate and coordinate the programming and we'll do the local contextualization so what was a volunteering opportunity the next

[00:08:12] year came to taking some of my holiday time from work to go out there and do this the knock on effect of that was the team in Sudan like you need to meet our team in Nigeria you

[00:08:20] need to meet our team in Kenya and slowly I was doing these kind of like side pieces supporting these initiatives where it got to the point where actually I was really excited by starting to understand these kind of under tapped opportunities across the content and

[00:08:35] these underserved markets and actually although I didn't have that local knowledge there were resources that I had best practice I had that in collaboration with people in the ground could actually build better programs and ultimately drive quicker scalable outcomes

[00:08:50] and that was really the start of my journey then over the course of the next kind of five six years it's led to the last 18 months doing my venture 54 I started to see the investment

[00:09:02] ecosystem grow on the continent and while I was with Google for startups working on helping investors look at opportunities in Africa which stem from my experience helping Asian funds access opportunities to invest in Europe and I was really like how can I combine

[00:09:16] this experience of bringing investors into new markets with my passion and excitement for helping develop entrepreneurial infrastructure and ecosystems in Africa and that's where really the GFS Google for startups piece came in they gave me the opportunity to do this and that's kind of

[00:09:31] led to where I'm now with venture 54 but just before we kind of got to venture 54 whilst in London realizing that actually I really am excited by the opportunities to work within these African ecosystems and help build those bridges between resources and opportunities

[00:09:47] that can be localized in market I wanted to build more relationships with people in the UK and that's really where the London Africa network came from back in 2021 COVID was all kind of you

[00:09:58] know still in the midst of it I was really keen to connect with people in London that were in that UK Africa tech corridor a couple of us started putting money behind the bar do a bit

[00:10:06] of a Christmas dinner and drinks about 20 30 people came off the back of that the feedback was like hey could we do one of these meetups every quarter and that grew into what is now the London

[00:10:15] Africa network and get plus people and that of course then led to having that network having that experience of a continent building venture 54 as a formal vehicle to start helping build those bridges particularly for mobilizing capital fantastic so you mentioned there your journey

[00:10:31] which involved the opportunity of going to Saddam to provide assistance so if you look at assistance specifically technical assistance could you talk us through the role of technical assistance funding in the African startup ecosystem and the work that you do with regards to that

[00:10:49] via ventures 54 yeah so for those who might be listening who aren't familiar what technical assistance is so technical assistance funding in the context of development finance institutions so dfi's which are institutions often deploying capital into international development projects

[00:11:07] technical assistance funding refers to the provision of non financial support so non investments such as equity grants or loans in generally and these resources are there to kind of enhance the effectiveness sustainability and impact of development projects or initiatives

[00:11:22] in developing countries so that might be capacity building and training for entrepreneurs market access and networking community building and strengthening of existing institutions delivering that support informing and supporting policy and regulation and right through to kind

[00:11:38] of monitoring and evaluating these projects and doing research into markets usually you don't find the investment side that I mentioned there but some dfi's do provide that kind of investment direct equity grant investment as well so it's not just non financial support sometimes it is

[00:11:54] but generally it's around non financial support freak assistance growth so you detailed the link between technical assistance funding and the work that you're currently doing with governments dfi's and funding agencies would be possible to share some examples of say successful collaborations

[00:12:10] that have led to impactful outcomes via these channels yeah of course so within the context of ventures 54 when it comes to technical assistance funding traditionally it's targeted towards supporting the entrepreneurs and the founders with skills capacity building building

[00:12:26] communities and ecosystems and within venture 54 although we do that what we try to do is really angle ourselves towards technical assistance for investors particularly those investors on the ground in these various markets and so how we go about doing that is saying well if

[00:12:42] if an investor's role is predominantly two things right mobilise capital into their fund that they can deploy and then source high quality startups that they can invest in support how do we provide technical assistance that enables them to do that more easily and more frictionless

[00:12:58] and obviously in developing markets there is a lot more work to be done on the ground to build those markets so we we really see that investors in in Africa are market makers they're not just mobilising capital deploying that capital and startups they're also having

[00:13:12] to build the infrastructure to create the startups and so for us when we think about technical assistance we want to support founders but you also equally want to make sure we're supporting investors to make their lives as easy as possible so a kind of a good example

[00:13:27] from our perspective it's probably one of our latest initiatives we've been working called founder to funder and this is an initiative that is very clearly about building bridges between UK investor communities and local investor and startup communities in

[00:13:43] Africa and we piloted that earlier this year in South Africa and the focus there was how do we help UK investors that are either currently investing in South Africa increase their capacity to do so

[00:13:54] or those who've not yet invested in Africa to help them understand the market build relationships and connections to hopefully get them to the point where they can start company investing in the market but then conversely working with local investors in South Africa

[00:14:08] who want to access opportunities for potentially raising funds from the UK for their own funds or to build better relationships with the UK markets particularly where they might want to say have one of their local South African portfolio companies expand into the UK whether that be

[00:14:25] for fundraising or kind of market business growth and as a part of that in between is really working with high quality high growth tech startups in South Africa that are looking to raise internationally or access opportunities to enter new markets internationally that we can use as a

[00:14:41] way to bring those investors together from the UK and South Africa to look at deal opportunities to learn and connect with each other so creating awareness of one another helping them to understand the markets and the entry points and the access and making sure the founders

[00:14:55] have the right tools and capacities fundraising successfully internationally and can tap into other resources and opportunities in the UK beyond investment. Brilliant so you've kind of detailed the work that you're doing with startups governments

[00:15:09] DFIs via Ventures54 and also the London African Network so it's quite clear that you have a diverse background and experience so how would you go about integrating these areas to drive collaboration and opportunities for entrepreneurship in Africa?

[00:15:28] So having this conversation actually with somebody the other day around what is the kind of fundamentals right now that are making the biggest difference in terms of developing the market or as you said there how do you create opportunities around collaboration

[00:15:44] and one word that always comes to mind is awareness. Yes. Actually firstly if you look at Africa right it's 54 countries in each country there are regions and there are so many different ecosystems and there are a lot of new people entering this space often a lot of people

[00:16:00] just aren't aware of who is who so who are the investors who are running checks into Africa who are the entrepreneurial support organizations that are sourcing and helping train founders who are the DFIs the government agencies and so what we've really found right now one of the

[00:16:18] fundamentals is just creating awareness of who is who helping people to qualify and unqualify those that they should be engaging with and where they can get that support and resources. At this stage

[00:16:28] right now we see a lot of people doing a lot of the same things which is great but often there are opportunities where actually if you collaborate you can create complementary opportunities and kind of get more for the resource that's going on so for us it's really

[00:16:40] about looking at every one of the stakeholders that we work with with us government investors founders really understanding what are their problems they've identified themselves and the resources they need and trying to connect them with the right people to try and remove

[00:16:58] the challenges where you go and connect with a lot of people have a lot of conversations with so many people in this space and you're not sure who is who and ultimately find that the people

[00:17:04] you're speaking with aren't the right ones so making sure everyone's aware of who is who and that's why when for example it'd be venture 54 of the Latin Africa network we do a lot of

[00:17:14] convening of these people to bring them into digital or physical rooms but putting them in the room saying this is why we're in the room the easy outcomes we're trying to achieve and we believe

[00:17:23] you're the right people to do it together we can't tell you how to do that and we aren't the right people to even kind of guide you on that but when you guys come together you're going to be the

[00:17:32] ones who do create those solutions and strategies and will drive those outcomes and actually that's right now a really crucial role great organizations that we're seeing in the ecosystem are doing is putting all those people in the room and creating that awareness

[00:17:45] fantastic so you touched on a key point which is awareness and understanding who is who so as someone who knows the who's in terms of the African startups and investors what's some of the common trends that you've noticed amongst investors who are looking to invest in the

[00:18:03] African tech space I mean this will this will vary from every investor to investor right so I don't dare to speak on behalf of our community so you know don't fully quote me on this although

[00:18:17] this of course is in a podcast so it really is but I think actually maybe there are two sides to this coin there is what are the industries and sectors that are being looked at in terms of

[00:18:28] broad investment opportunities and then also what are the current trends around transacting those investments particularly in the downturn that we've seen ourselves in in the last kind of 18 months so when it comes to African tech investing fintech is the one that I'm sure has

[00:18:45] come up countless times on the podcast alongside infrastructure energy education climate health logistics and e-commerce right some of these big clear defined industries now mentioned fintech there is often the one that's most regularly spoken about particularly

[00:19:03] between the uk and london being a financial hub and the african continent but actually in 2022 we saw a reduction in investing going to fintech it was down by about 30 on the previous year

[00:19:17] and equally with health another big industry was down by a similar amount percentage if not more whereas we saw in climate and e-commerce at 200 plus percent growth in investing and so these are some of the industries that are getting a lot of eyeballs right now

[00:19:34] e-commerce obviously because now we're seeing more digital internet infrastructure coming across the continent which is creating a whole new wave of digital and online consumers climate obviously within the african continent for various reasons

[00:19:48] is a huge industry right now but also not just a huge industry for solving climate issues being suffered with the african continent actually creating the innovations and solutions for issues we're seeing in other parts of the world and actually if you look 10 50 years down the line

[00:20:04] african innovation in clean tech and climate tech could be at the forefront of innovation for this and that talks about then markets out of africa the best practice globally which is really interesting exciting then the other side of the coin i think should

[00:20:18] be spending about is right now in the the downturn that we've seen and obviously venture capital investing on the continent is very small comparatively to the rest of the world and although we

[00:20:28] had seen a reduction in the first half this year the previous years it's actually being still pretty good as comparative to the rest of the world so yes any shrinkage we've seen investing on the continent here is just an effect of the global shrinkage we've seen and not

[00:20:43] africa as an outlier but i think what we're seeing is a shift away from growth all-cost investing to performance runway and profit with more modest expectations on what that growth will look like for these startups this is meant lower and arguably more realistic valuations of companies

[00:21:00] are starting to come in and also as well diversification in the time investments being made so we've just had a lot of equity investing but now we're seeing a lot of dead investing coming in as well and blended finance approaches for founders that's not just being driven

[00:21:15] by a reduction in money in the markets from an equity standpoint but also investors are realizing for kind of longevity for their portfolio companies but also for their funds themselves particularly those who may be raising capital for their funds at the moment

[00:21:27] in the downturn having that blended approach can somewhat de-risk the investment but also bring more capital into the market as well so i think they're kind of the trends in how investments happening but also where the investments are going

[00:21:41] awesome so keeping on the theme of trends we are seeing an emerging trend of african startups who are i'd say exploring the uk market as a springboard for global exposure and growth is this a viable strategy and how can the uk serve as a springboard for african entrepreneurs

[00:22:02] i say this without sounding as a british guy being bias but obviously having had my background experience being in the uk i'm naturally better versed with talking about the positives and pros of being here but i think the first thing to say there is

[00:22:17] companies wanting global exposure and growth within africa is one thing but actually a lot of african born companies are from day one or certainly in their early stages looking

[00:22:30] to to some extent offshore their businesses and this is not just to the uk this is also to the us and the reason often being is because of access to capital so right now if you look at a lot of

[00:22:43] companies i believe if you look at nigeria about two-thirds of all companies that receive venture capital funding have offshore entities where they've often received that capital and the reason being is a lot of investors right now don't have the ability to invest into

[00:22:59] companies that are structured and based in certain markets across africa whether that be that their fund mandate doesn't allow them to do it whether it be that it's too high risk in terms of exchange controls risk in market you know currency fluctuations where they actually

[00:23:17] need these startups to be you know registering in delaware or london so even before we get the point of the idea of growing internationally in access markets a lot of them are setting up

[00:23:27] from day one so they can bring in capital to the business and from a growth standpoint you know and capital is a part of that one of the strengths i think for the united kingdom

[00:23:37] obviously clear things are geographic resistance to the continent um you know it's a short kind of six hour flight to nigeria from london time zone difference is only a couple of hours depending on where you are on the continent languages english is a largely predominantly

[00:23:52] spoken language in most of these service markets and the dice were obviously as well is very strong in the united kingdom so there's some key ones but if you look at the united kingdom as a start-up ecosystem we're also talking here about entrepreneurs growing and going global exposure

[00:24:08] there's a training there's a wealth of accelerators and infrastructure right from academic to private that are supporting entrepreneurs so there's a lot of free support and training and resourcing setting up in the uk a business is very very easy and not just that

[00:24:25] there are a lot of support entities at the site soft landing the for example the global entrepreneurs program from the department of industrial trade helps high growth technology startups who want to land expand the uk and provides you free resource around selling your business legal accounting

[00:24:38] advisory access to markets access to resources and experts and so there's a series of initiatives that do that in the public and private sector not to mention the technicians visa scheme and the digital talent visas that are on hand to help entrepreneurs internationally come into the

[00:24:54] uk um and i mean the technician program is now going to be run by founders forum so if you're searching it might not come up as technician anymore um and then things from around investment

[00:25:05] so famously the scis eis investment schemes and these were tax relief schemes for any stage investors for investing to kind of promote and champion them doing early stage investing into entrepreneurs these have been hugely successful and have been others have looked in international

[00:25:20] markets do the same although brexit aside we are a stone's throw from europe which kind of is that springboard to allow you easy access and transit into those markets um and then finally there's

[00:25:32] a hugely growing uk africa ecosystem here i mean the london african network that i'm a part of is an example of that but there is so many people now who are operating in uk and africa so actually

[00:25:44] when entrepreneurs come here yes i can point them in direction of these formal programs but half the time i'm just making a dozen introductions to individuals like yourself other founders that have been there and done it who can then give their lived experience and give them another 10

[00:25:59] introductions as well so there's a huge flourishing uk africa ecosystem of people based here in london and across across the country as well that are on hand support beyond these formally signed posted institutions fantastic thank you for showing that information so i guess if we look

[00:26:15] at it from the other direction what advice would you give to uk companies interested in tapping into african markets for opportunities and talent yeah this is a kind of a really kind of growing

[00:26:30] area at the moment right we talk about founders exporting themselves and their businesses off the continent into markets like the uk or the us but actually there is this hugely under tapped opportunity to do the same way whether it's taking your business into those

[00:26:46] markets or actually say talent so what we found at the moment is when we're not personally doing too much work in this ourselves so it's more observational for me right now than kind of lived experience but we are seeing a lot of scaling ventures in europe looking to

[00:27:03] access markets across the continent and sell up operations i think firstly a demonstration that is there's a number of actual formal programs supporting that you have for example partech you know one of the biggest vcs in europe and biggest vcs on the african continent

[00:27:18] have got their chapter 54 european scale up program so open scaling ventures in europe to land expand to african markets initiative funded by the european unicorn in rich in africa alongside co-creation hub which is kind of one of the most prominent

[00:27:33] start-up hubs on the continent out of a couple different markets they're running a program helping african founders found to europe but i believe also european founders to scale into africa so you've got a series of these programs actually providing a kind of end to end solution

[00:27:50] for that so i recommend people looking at doing that and then finally as well i think looking actually if you're wanting to do it another first protocol is if we look at london for example they

[00:27:59] have london apartments which is the kind of the business side of the mayor of london's office which does a lot of work with entrepreneurs whether it's uk entrepreneurs want to expand into markets internationally or entrepreneurs want to expand into the uk they do a ton of support

[00:28:12] if you look for example in south africa capetown where i was based the first half this year for the western capes of the whole kind of western region of south africa there's an entity called westscrope which is very much similar london partners there to promote champion tourism

[00:28:25] and business and investment into the western cape and they provide a lot of opportunities for entrepreneurs to expand access kind of human talent and capital as well within this market so i think for any entrepreneurs looking to expand into a market assuming you've already

[00:28:42] got an understanding for which region of africa you want to look at is to then actually are there any institutions for running programs that can support us to do that or locally are there public private sector organizations like a west growing south africa like a london partners in

[00:28:56] london who will probably have either initiatives running or individuals that can help you and i think that is the first stepping off point i would say if you don't already have context on

[00:29:05] the ground but i think above and beyond that is if you're going to do anything around that you you really need to get on the ground to live and breathe the market that you want to

[00:29:14] work within or even to hire talent from right it's it's not just about saying that there is a customer base that mirrors our market here in our home country you've actually got to really understand

[00:29:25] the local context you know you've got to understand that business is very different in different parts of africa and also equally as well if you're going to engage high local talent you want to be on the ground there with them to really make sure they understand your business

[00:29:37] for me with venture 54 when we were expanding south africa a big part of me moving down there was when bringing on talent into the business or working with local partners was living and

[00:29:47] breathing how they work and how they operate and understanding that we need to fit within that and complement that rather than just assume people can work within our frameworks or our ways of operating as well so use one of these former institutions offering support

[00:30:01] and resources and then making sure that you're getting on the ground even for a short period of time to make sure bring on the right first couple hires or people to lead things for you within those open markets awesome awesome advice so if we look

[00:30:14] closer at talent and unlocking human resources how do you go about connecting say startups with the right expertise to ensure their success yeah i think the one thing i come back to on this again i'm only speaking of my experience right yes and it's building trusted relationships

[00:30:35] with people you know you can have a network where you know a lot of people that you've met and you might even have alignment on what you do the areas you work in but to have a trusted

[00:30:45] relationship is something that you have to build over time and that comes from firstly is really understanding the people that you're working with inside out both personally and professionally but also time to work together is where you build the trust through the action

[00:30:59] of doing things ensuring that you can do things it's great to meet someone one time and provide them an introduction which is valuable but it's far stronger and deeper when you continuously

[00:31:09] provide that kind of value because you really show that you've gotten to know and get to understand so for us when it comes to unlocking that human and commercial resources for those who work with her it's a founder investor we really take the time to build long-term relationships

[00:31:24] so it's very much a case of going out there meeting as many people as possible across the Stimphony State group and understanding people but to make sure that whoever we're going to work with we're doing so because we're aligned both in terms of what the value exchanges

[00:31:39] that we can provide that value to them and they've got the ability to work with us to unlock that value but also to make sure we know what we are and what we are not and they know that clearly

[00:31:50] as well so say what we can and can't do and I think there's that kind of expectation management piece and when you're in a space like the space we're working with hey we can unlock

[00:32:00] opportunities in new markets or we can introduce as hey Anthony and venture 54 a really good organization talk to about Axiom opportunities in UK that's quite a broad statement and so what we're going to make sure we do is that people know clearly what we can provide and can't

[00:32:16] provide and we know clearly what they actually need because no out of 10 times we might not be the right people to do it but we can then introduce them to those that might be able to do it and

[00:32:25] that means in that process you kind of almost need to kind of whenever we provide our programs or our initiatives kind of cut the fluff we get straight to the nuts and bolts of what needs

[00:32:33] to be done so a very un programmatic approach what are your specific challenges and what are you trying to access and then taking a long-term relationship approach where we unlock those things and making sure they know that this isn't going to be

[00:32:46] a quick one week quickfire thing we're going to work with you long term and we're going to kind of on an ad hoc basis make sure we provide you as much value as possible

[00:32:53] and so I think that's the approach that needs to be taken right now because markets are shifting and changing so dramatically in terms of what entrepreneurs on the content different markets need versus what resources are available in the UK obviously we have a downturn which is seen

[00:33:09] a decrease in investment capital coming to markets but also that has a massive effect on the DFI's government agencies and their funding and what they can do and suddenly it shifts the amount of resources that can be thrown behind certain programs initiatives so that means

[00:33:22] having a short-term approach could mean that you could severely damage your ability to support entrepreneurs because sometimes you have those kind of dips in resources and access to market opportunities whereas if you take it as a long-term approach it means yes you have those

[00:33:36] dips but you'll also have those rises again and so very much that long-term trusty relationship approach is the way we do it. As you mentioned building a network and trust takes time and also comes with its own challenges I was wondering if you could share

[00:33:51] examples of some of the challenges you've encountered while working on cross-border investment initiatives. I think the biggest challenge I've seen or observed where I've not been directly involved is often a consequence of not having done proper research so if I take

[00:34:10] the example of where I've seen international investors looking opportunities in various markets across the continent and they're going through the due diligence process and we get to this point of term sheets negotiations and you see a massive misalignment in expectations whether it be around

[00:34:28] valuation, the vehicle in which the investment will be made and more often not these come from research basis so understanding how that fund makes its investment so the founders understand well this is how that fund is structured, this is how they operate and do their investments

[00:34:47] to investors having expectations around what evaluation might be say because they're traditionally a European investor and they have not a bias towards maybe European market valuations but they've yet to fully understand the the nature reality of those local markets and vice versa for

[00:35:05] those founders having to face their valuation in that local market versus what it might be for that international investor in their local market and also we've seen conflict between local international investors around valuations as well so it's not just a founder to invest in,

[00:35:19] it can be an investor in a vest piece. We found that actually and this is where we try to play a role is kind of expectation management so making sure there is an alignment on these things and

[00:35:29] that they understand the end-to-end process for both sides of the table but equally as well to quickly invalidate or validate whether or not there is going to be incompatibility for these various reasons and making sure that upfront that research is done

[00:35:45] and those things are known means either people can adapt and find a way to get there or if it just won't work you kind of go your separate ways and this is a great point talking to

[00:35:55] this is we have a lot of founders in South Africa where it's a very hard market to invest directly into the international investor. You have very tight exchange controls about getting money in and out of the country, there's IP regulations and restrictions around how you can get IP

[00:36:10] out of the country if you want to expand the company internationally or offshore it and so one of the things when working with founders in South Africa is you might be in South African market serving company and you want to keep that entire business in South Africa

[00:36:22] but if you are maybe looking to access international capital or you want to expand this internationally and take the IP overseas it's worth when you set up early doors getting another entity set up overseas straight away so when you come to the point of say fundraising instead

[00:36:37] of getting to the point negotiate say well we can't invest into your South African vehicle we need you to set up offshore you might not have enough time to set up offshore before

[00:36:44] the deal dies or the investors you know no longer want to participate so by thinking about those things up front it enables to make sure you're not closing any doors and you have that optionality but also for founders as well if they're thinking long term about growth internationally

[00:36:57] they're probably going to want an entity overseas so where do they want to be based did they want to be based in the US because that's a market they want to go into all the

[00:37:04] UK because they want proximity to country so getting people to think about these things ahead of time before they go down that investment journey is really really important so you don't hit the speed bumps later on. Fantastic so earlier you mentioned working with

[00:37:16] people and taking a long-term view you also touched on valuations and funds recently you've started working with some hedge funds with a long-term view? Yeah alternate asset classes to venture capital so private equity hedge funds pension funds who are looking at opportunities

[00:37:35] long term within Africa so yeah we're not doing any formal investment projects but we're working with them to kind of create a spotlight on the opportunities and connect them into the ecosystem. Fantastic so how do you see this approach shaping the investment landscape for

[00:37:49] African startups and tech companies? I wish you were asking me this question maybe like January next year but it's an exciting place to be so working alongside venture capital funds investing in African startups it's obviously a completely different asset class to private

[00:38:07] equity to venture funds hedge funds both in terms of stage of investing but also the vehicles and the type of investment we do and the expectations of when you get liquidity events and how you get your

[00:38:18] returns out of the investments so they're completely different different worlds in that perspective and one of the things that we've been doing this is working in collaboration with the British government is starting to get these asset managers around tables together so

[00:38:33] back to the point I said before creating awareness of who is who so can we get some of the leading venture capital fund managers to sit around the table with these latest aid asset managers to talk about the opportunities for investing across the African continent and what

[00:38:47] might it look like for these latest asset managers to deploy capital to say into some of these venture capital funds and the two parts there right are firstly validating the market opportunity is there a clear opportunity where these investors could see return if they

[00:39:03] start investing in space and equally comes back to everything is kind of that that risk factor and actually how do you understand what the risk is how do you hedge that risk and is it

[00:39:16] ultimately a viable place to operate right now for them as a fund for a lot of them right now it's no it's a more of a long-term piece to predominantly understand the market the return opportunities are there and are growing but it's understanding actually what are the vehicles

[00:39:30] in which we can invest because right now for a lot of them to deploy capital from their asset class into venture capital is difficult in terms of how fund is structured but how the

[00:39:39] value is realised in the returns I think what will happen is we will see these latest aid asset classes doing more investing whether it's putting it into venture or investing in their own respective classes but more in the content we'll probably we'll start to see

[00:39:54] clearer pathways to getting cash out so right now that's one of the biggest restrictions is how you you can put cash in but how you get cash out at liquidity events and returns

[00:40:03] whether that be say you have to have the businesses set up in the UK or the US or whatever it be it will it will force the markets to to mature and to find ways in which we can more clearly get

[00:40:12] the cash out because that's one of the biggest risk factors is actually the cash gets locked up and how do we we realise that value at the point of an exit IPR whatever it might be the second thing will be probably more around transparency and knowledge sharing

[00:40:24] of market activities these latest aid funds you know are kind of more around analysing markets in public sense particularly the publicly traded funds so we'll see a lot of more searching of data I mean right now the knowledge infrastructure for the african tech ecosystem

[00:40:41] is still in its infancy but we're seeing great organisations like Brighter who are building a platform for developing market knowledge and investing and you know you've got reports that come out from par tech and others every year that put a highlight on what's going on on the

[00:40:56] continent so we'll see a lot more data being accessible but really right now the role we're trying to play is that early stage create awareness of who is who get these venture capital funds to present about the opportunities they see and how they're operating and the success

[00:41:10] and the stories they're having to come out a bit and then seeing how these other asset managers respond to it what are the questions they're asking what are the points in which

[00:41:19] we say what gets you to a yes to deploy x amount of capital as an LP into a VC fund or if you're not doing that how would you want to deploy your capital because that's when we start

[00:41:28] to think about what are the vehicles that can be created to kind of mobilise more of this capital and bring it into the markets fantastic so I guess this is all part of your strategy

[00:41:37] for mobilising more capital into Africa how would you plan to scale these efforts in the coming years good question and a conversation me and my team and I advise are having all the time

[00:41:51] brilliant so yeah i'm on here for a year from now it's probably going to be a completely different answer or probably in three months time to be honest but for us right now what scaling looks like

[00:42:02] it's not necessarily about scaling our capacities in terms of headcount or resources and we are a human intensive business um it's really about deepening our knowledge and understanding of the markets in which we operate so within the context of the UK we've got really strong

[00:42:17] relationships into the public private sector the investor communities particularly investor communities are not currently investing into african markets and they're the ones we really want to go after and our growth is predominantly around how do we mobilise new capital into

[00:42:32] markets not just get more of the same capital coming in but the part for us over the next couple years and the five-year horizon is to make sure that we really understand the

[00:42:42] local markets in africa that we operate and that's being firstly on the ground making sure that people in our team are from those local markets and are able to contextualise the resource opportunities

[00:42:54] that we can bring to the ground um and then i think yes finally for us is what does the future models of investing that are conscientious is it going to be more venture capital are they

[00:43:06] going to be new asset classes or investment vehicles are we going to see more deep and blended finance approaches and making sure that we can either support mobilisation capital for those or we potentially ourselves become one of those modes for investing we might be able to start

[00:43:23] deploying capital ourselves i don't know yet the answer on that question but right now we're really focused on making sure that working with the dfi's and government agencies we are working with we're building initiatives that really listen to both these founder and investment

[00:43:37] communities around what they need to make it more frictionless for capital to come in out of these markets and what initiatives give them more capacity time resources to either raise as a founder and grow their business or mobilise and deploy capital as an investor into those businesses

[00:43:53] brilliant so you've clearly detailed your plans for scaling as they are for now you've slightly touched on this but how are you going about balancing the various interests of the range of stakeholders that are involved in these efforts i think the key thing that we really

[00:44:10] try to do is make sure the proverbial table is represented the whole ecosystem and everybody has a different role to play so whether it be founders investors government or the kind of that's categorised broadly here entrepreneurial support organisations so law firms countancies

[00:44:27] accelerators everybody that provides that hands-on support like a technical assistance initiative would and it's really for us is understanding what's the end goal of all these different stakeholders and making sure that we work back from each of those end goals so that

[00:44:40] whatever we're providing to them creates that end goal value so a great example was i was on a panel with a series of investors earlier in the year and the host asked the question should governments be building their own investment funds to invest into startups

[00:44:57] and it came up the question was like well what is the government's end goal in international development and trade ultimately it's to increase the wealth and prosperity of their home country and that doesn't have to be in public money growing through investments right it's about

[00:45:12] private entities and businesses prospering infrastructure being there so it was saying well an international investors role is to invest but the government's role will be to create the environment in which those investments can be made more successfully

[00:45:24] to create the tax incentive schemes so it's making sure that we understand what it is those organisations can also do and not just what they want and bring them together so okay well if this is the challenge you will face we're seeing here are the connecting dots

[00:45:38] and then making sure when they're at the table everyone knows and it goes back to our expectation management piece that awareness piece and having alignment on who does what who doesn't do what and what are people's end goals and objectives and outcomes

[00:45:50] and if we can bring them to the table and create that awareness across those different areas what will naturally then happen is positive conversations that will come to the solutions that work for everybody whereas if you try to work with any of

[00:46:04] these entities in kind of a siloed approach and manage that you're going to start trying to generate ideas that you think will work but it actually isn't informed by the collective so our goal always is to make sure we get all these states on the table

[00:46:18] make sure everyone understands what everyone's end outcome is and what resources they can bring to the table and start that conversation for them to generate those ideas and then we might take those ideas forward or they will take those ideas based on what we've shown them

[00:46:30] and that'll inform their approach to working independent of us. Brilliant so you've mentioned the end goals and also the trends that you're seeing in mobilizing more capital into Africa so keeping on the theme of trends what are some of the trends

[00:46:44] that you're seeing in say the international investment corridors in Africa that you're currently excited about. Gosh there's quite a few things I'm excited about there's what I'm personally excited about and what's also happening in the markets um I'll try and blend the two

[00:46:59] so I think one of the things we're seeing it's quite exciting right now is I said this near the beginning right you have the big four markets you had Nigeria Kenya Egypt and South Africa

[00:47:10] but now we're really starting to see a lot of investments going into several other key countries across the continent but even more excitingly we're seeing investments going into markets that you might have been surprised to see getting venture capital investments. Sadly obviously we know

[00:47:28] since April we've had the civil war and conflict happening in Sudan which has kind of brought their ecosystem to somewhat of a grinding hole in terms of the progress it was making

[00:47:37] but we had seen the first venture capital deals go into Sudan we've seen a startup make it into wide combinator from Sudan so we're now starting to see that actually entrepreneurs are popping up

[00:47:48] across most markets in Africa and even those have had historically some of the biggest challenges in terms of operating on the international stage and receiving investment. Sudan being one of them is able to find innovative solutions to make that work

[00:48:01] and that there are venture capital funds who are at the forefront who are willing to go into these markets and start making those investments so that's something that really excites me that it's not just

[00:48:11] in these big markets we're seeing investments are seeing a lot of these smaller more challenging markets which means there are opportunities but there are vehicles if people are willing to kind of explore them. I think the other thing for me is personally but this is also looked

[00:48:25] at by a lot of investors as well is where formal economies are being tapped into so those traditionally that haven't been served digitally and being able to create solutions that bring informal economies into the digital space which can scale them up which can mean these communities that

[00:48:42] are often not fully plugged into national infrastructure ecosystems can start to access opportunities and improve the way in which they receive them and then also we're now at a point where we're seeing a lot of the analogy that the PayPal mafia you know those that

[00:48:58] came out of PayPal have gone on to build some of the biggest companies since then with the returns they've made and often more often than not it's not the founders it's the first employees that

[00:49:08] came into the company. We're starting to see that now on the continent or we're going to start seeing a lot more of that where you've got these people who are hired as first employees

[00:49:17] into these tech companies that have gone on to scale, raise funding, have had successful ex-fits and these first employees have been able to realise some of that cash value and they're now taking that real world learned experience of building a business and applying it to opportunities

[00:49:31] and challenges they're seeing in the market and they're going to build a new business with all of that experience which just means you've got these leveled up operators now building businesses so I think the caliber of standard businesses is only going to increase because

[00:49:43] of that experience as well so at the moment mapping out different businesses who are their leadership teams, whose had exits, where have those people gone and seeing the opportunities they're going after and because often that means they're going to be very effective people in

[00:49:57] executing on those opportunities. Awesome awesome awesome so moving from trends and look into the future where do you see cross-border investment between Africa and the rest of the world in the near future what will it look like? I think capital coming to markets is only

[00:50:15] going to grow and I think I'm going to see a lot more new investment space which feels quite obvious to say as markets grow but I think it's going to become more frictionous so we talked earlier

[00:50:24] about companies having to kind of offshore from day one setting up in Delaware or London to enable more capital securing safely to flow into their businesses but I'm really interested to think that actually will we in the next kind of five years see the Delaware of London

[00:50:40] of Africa who is going to be that country or market that becomes the go-to place for investing? You know we look at yes we talk about Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, Egypt's of this world

[00:50:53] but actually you could look at Rwanda or even Mauritius right these small state countries that don't have these big start-up ecosystems but are making incredibly business friendly to set up businesses

[00:51:06] to have international holdings to get capital in and out of them so I'm hoping and excited that we may find Delaware or London of Africa which means a UK fund no longer has to say well we really need

[00:51:17] you to have operations and set up in London or the US they say actually if you guys can have your operation that operation for investing into and if it were Rwanda that will get me

[00:51:28] really excited and I think we'll get there some point hopefully we'll get clearer to that site in the next five years or so. I think from an actually investing perspective hopefully we will see more

[00:51:39] growth stage funds entering the space if you look at some of the reporting and some of the data that's out right now on where investment capital is going into the ecosystem at the kind of early stage from incubator accelerator first check right through the seed there is that's

[00:51:57] where the highest portion of money currently is being deployed in the ecosystem in terms of number of deals in the last couple years whereas in series A, B, C downwards there's a lot less

[00:52:08] capital being deployed one that's a result of not being as many companies in that that growth stage but we're going to see more in that space so I think we're going to see more growth

[00:52:16] stage funds coming into the market but also existing funds who were probably earlier stage building growth funds as well to continue investing down that journey so a more frictionless ways to invest which may come through the Delaware or London of Africa and we'll see more

[00:52:31] growth stage funding hopefully to help continue to scale up those successful businesses that are right now in that kind of pre seed seed stage. That's great to hear so if we look closer to

[00:52:42] home where do you see yourself and ventures 54 in the next five years or in the near future? Yeah again it's a great question and I can't say for certain what that looks like as operating

[00:52:56] in the African tech ecosystem things are changing constantly particularly around what needs to be done but as I said from the previous question about what we're doing I think it's a more scaled version of what we're doing now in terms of our knowledge and understanding

[00:53:11] and that might be growing our team but I think it goes beyond not just creating connections opportunities to mobilize capital for the contents tech ecosystem but also potentially help create new vehicles and models to enable more money to flow in and out

[00:53:23] of Africa easily. So myself personally very much going on a journey right now you know being in South Africa first half this year moving to Kenya for the back half this year before spending time next year in Nigeria so it's very much exploring these markets and working out

[00:53:41] where we're best placed to provide support and it goes back to that point before we take a very collaborative approach to what we do particularly in local markets so we look for the local talent expertise and organizations we collaborate with and our role should only ever be

[00:53:57] where we can do something that's unique whether that's mobilizing capital that didn't previously exist or bringing in resources that can be plugged into existing initiatives on the ground and collaborate with local partners and human talent as well so wherever we are in

[00:54:11] five years time it's hopefully in a very collaborative pool of great organizations and institutions across the continent that we're bringing resources talent opportunities to. Awesome awesome awesome and I look forward to seeing how that develops. Me too buddy me too.

[00:54:28] As people we often have quotes mantras proverbs or affirmations that keep us going when times are challenging or when times are good do you have one that you can share with us today? I do I do and I also knew this question was coming having listened to the

[00:54:43] You came prepared. I came prepared but thankfully this is one that's held true to my heart even if it comes from maybe almost a comical person but it's a quote that actually I have

[00:54:54] all of my stuff from my flat land is the current in storage because I'm traveling across the continent working there so I don't have it in front of me but normally would be in my

[00:55:00] flat on my wall but it was a quote from the Fresh Prince of Bel Air himself with Will Smith. See I'm not about to bust out the rhyme from the original show but it's

[00:55:10] I'll read it out for you it's don't try to build a wall don't set out to build a wall you don't say I'm going to build the biggest baddest greatest wall that's ever been built

[00:55:19] you don't start there you say I'm going to lay this brick as perfectly as a brick can be laid and you do that every single day and soon you have a wall and that quote I absolutely love because

[00:55:29] it's saying that you're going on a long journey or it certainly feels for me it's a long journey and if you look at what you want it to be it can be quite daunting

[00:55:38] and often the wall that you've got in your head now is not the wall you're going to end up finishing building so we should just really focus on the day by day and making sure that

[00:55:47] everything we do is of the highest quality so if we change direction even that design of the wall differs we know that everything we've done till now has put us in the best possible position to take that next step forward and I think working within the

[00:55:58] African tech and style of PQ system things are changing constantly and so you just need to put your best foot forward every day and make sure you're offering the best value you possibly can and that you know this is a long journey and they're all in this together

[00:56:10] and we just need great quality along the way. Thank you for sharing that who knew the Fresh Prince was also a philosopher. I know, I know right he's a host of my heart,

[00:56:20] I think about him every day. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant as we've come to the end of today's conversation do you have any closing remarks final course of action for people who are interested in the work that you're doing at Ventures 54? Yes so for Ventures 54 if you're

[00:56:38] a DFI or a government institution that is looking to build various initiatives and bridge between the UK, Europe and Africa when it comes to say start the venture capital or indeed you're an investor internationally looking to access opportunities for content or an investor on the

[00:56:51] content looking to unlock resources in the UK please do get in touch always have to have conversations and if we're not the right people to support or work with we'll point the right direction of who would be and then also if you don't mind I'd love to

[00:57:06] do a shout out for the London Africa network and for those who are operating between the UK and Africa or are starting to get into that space whether you're an African founder looking to come

[00:57:15] to UK to explore the market or you're someone in the UK who's starting to think about working in that kind of Africa tech space go to www.londonafrica.org we're a community to bring people together we have a convening every quarter in London and we would love to

[00:57:30] kind of welcome into the community so you can learn connect and then finally you can follow me on LinkedIn I write a weekly news post about what's going on African tech which seems to be a newsletter as well but also it's a great way to just connect

[00:57:42] with me on a personal note for any of the things that I do and then finally I should say as well just to thank you so much for having me on the podcast really love the work you're

[00:57:49] doing as I said before to put a spotlight on what's going on and look forward to future episodes even if it's mine. Fantastic the feelings mutual really respect the work

[00:57:59] that you're doing and it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast so thank you for joining us today it's clear that your passion for building bridges between Africa's tech ecosystem and the rest of the world is making an impact and creating positive change so brilliant and

[00:58:16] kudos to you and the team. Thank you my friend, it's been a pleasure take care everybody. Thank you to everyone who has listened and stayed tuned to the podcast if you've enjoyed this episode please subscribe share or tell a friend about it you can also rate

[00:58:32] with yours in Apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast