Advancing Women’s Economic Power in Africa Through Financial Access and Digital Technologies with Rachel Toku-Appiah

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast.

[00:00:04] The foundation invests a lot in data, working to generate the evidence that will help to

[00:00:10] show decision makers that it actually makes sense to invest in women from a business perspective.

[00:00:16] So it's not just being charitable and helping them out.

[00:00:19] 40% of government procurements will go to women-owned, women-led businesses.

[00:00:25] We do have a number of initiatives that we are supporting to increase women's economic power.

[00:00:31] While some progress has been made, there are still significant disparities in women's economic

[00:00:37] participation across the African continent.

[00:00:40] Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential.

[00:00:47] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa podcast with your host, Terser Adamu.

[00:00:55] Welcome to the Unlocking Africa podcast where we find inspirational people who are doing

[00:01:01] inspirational things to unlock Africa's economic potential.

[00:01:05] Today, we have Rachel Toku-Apia who is the director of program advocacy and communications for Africa

[00:01:14] at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Welcome to the podcast, Rachel. How are you?

[00:01:19] I am very well. Thank you, Terser. Thank you for having me today.

[00:01:23] It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. So where are you today?

[00:01:28] Today I'm actually in Abuja meeting with some of our partners.

[00:01:33] My second home, Abuja. So yes, it's been, well, I actually visited last year but yeah,

[00:01:39] spent many years in my youth living in Abuja. Great. So did you see any major changes?

[00:01:47] Funny enough, the last time I visited was last year and that was the first time

[00:01:51] in quite a while because most times when I visit Nigeria, go to Lagos.

[00:01:55] There's a lot of change. Obviously the city has expanded phenomenally from when I remember as a

[00:02:02] child. It's grown a lot. Well, we hope to help support continue change in a positive direction

[00:02:10] throughout work. Yes. And I'm looking forward to hearing all about it during our conversation.

[00:02:14] So as always, I like to start from the beginning. So I was hoping you could introduce

[00:02:19] yourself and tell us a bit more about Rachel Toku Apia. Great. No, thank you. So as I said,

[00:02:28] I'm Rachel Toku Apia, born in Ghana. I actually grew up in Botswana, did all my primary, secondary

[00:02:36] first degree there, post grad in the UK, worked in the US and in several countries in Africa.

[00:02:43] But I had the benefits of growing up in a family where not only was I afforded every opportunity

[00:02:51] my siblings had, regardless of whether they were boys or girls. But my parents actually had me

[00:02:58] because they really wanted another girl. And so it's only when I grew up that I actually

[00:03:05] realized some of the challenges that other women across the continent face. And I've just

[00:03:11] been very passionate about working to help level the playing field, recognizing that no one chooses

[00:03:19] which country, which community, which family to be born into. And so if we can give everyone

[00:03:25] access to opportunities to develop to their full potential around health, around education,

[00:03:32] and economic opportunities later in life, this is what drives me. This is what I'm

[00:03:37] passionate about, and what I hope to contribute to achieving in my current role at the Biller

[00:03:44] Melinda Gates Foundation. Thank you for sharing that, Rachel. So let's get straight into it in

[00:03:50] terms of your work as director of program advocacy and communications at the Bill

[00:03:56] and Melinda Gates Foundation. How do you perceive the current landscape of women's

[00:04:01] economic empowerment in Sub-Saharan Africa? You know, while some progress has been made,

[00:04:09] there are still significant disparities in women's economic participation across the African

[00:04:15] continent. And increasing women's inclusion and participation society is just critical

[00:04:23] for driving progress and prosperity in Africa. We know that some of the things we know right

[00:04:30] now is when women control household incomes, their children's health improves, malnutrition is

[00:04:38] reduced by up to 43%. This was in an FAO report. And a recent study in Malawi has found that

[00:04:47] investing in women's economic power enhances school progression and completion rates

[00:04:53] and can contribute to human capital development in Sub-Saharan Africa. And this is because

[00:04:59] when mothers have more financial autonomy, they're more likely to invest in their children's

[00:05:03] nutrition and well-being and take primary responsibility for their children's education.

[00:05:09] So we still have some significant gaps in terms of women's economic participation

[00:05:17] and particularly around access to finance. We know, for example, that women business

[00:05:25] owners in Sub-Saharan Africa receive only 15% of loans issued to small and medium-sized businesses.

[00:05:33] And women business owners, you know, in South Asia, it's another continent, but really just

[00:05:39] illustrating that this is not just an African challenge but extends beyond. So women business

[00:05:45] owners in South Asia receive just under 10% of financing that is given to small and medium

[00:05:53] owned businesses. So this just gives you an indication that there's still a lot of work to be done.

[00:06:00] As you mentioned, progress has been made, but there's still a lot of work to be done.

[00:06:05] And you've touched on some key points and statistics. I know you're quite passionate

[00:06:09] about financial access. So maybe if we look at financial access specifically when it comes

[00:06:15] to digital financial services, what role do you think that can play in bridging the financial

[00:06:22] gap specifically for women entrepreneurs in Africa? It can play a huge role in the sense that if

[00:06:32] we're able to set up digital public infrastructure in our countries that facilitates women's

[00:06:40] financial inclusion, it can help build trust first of all between citizens, between governments,

[00:06:50] between financial institutions such as the bank. It is something that is accessible just because

[00:06:58] of the extensive reach that digital has these days. We know that mobile phone use has seen

[00:07:06] and continues to see a significant increase in the African continent, though there's still more

[00:07:13] to be done for women's financial access. But we saw even during the pandemic that many countries

[00:07:19] whose citizens were able to weather it better were able to do so because of digital financial

[00:07:25] payments to support them, social support payments. We also know that digital again

[00:07:35] because of its extensive reach, women don't necessarily have to go far to travel far

[00:07:44] to access physical institutions. I know of models in places where there are women that

[00:07:51] actually take the financial services to rural communities and provide those services using

[00:07:58] a smartphone. And so it just makes it much more accessible and it's even better of course if

[00:08:04] we're able to link this to a national ID system. It gives the women control over their finances,

[00:08:13] the resources come directly to them. One other thing that it does is when women are able to

[00:08:19] save money because of digital financial accounts, what happens is that they're able over time to

[00:08:27] demonstrate that they have resources, it's able to give them access to financing ways that they

[00:08:35] couldn't have before. Right now many women that are unbanked are keeping their money with them.

[00:08:41] Not only does this not help when they're trying to access finance, but putting that

[00:08:46] money in an account if you were able to pool all those resources that are with so many

[00:08:53] women that are doing businesses and are not able to bank it. That also creates a pool of resources

[00:08:59] that other women can access to fuel growth of their businesses. So it really has wide

[00:09:07] ranging impact in terms of inclusion from women in the city to women in rural areas.

[00:09:13] And perhaps I can illustrate with an example where I currently live in South Africa

[00:09:21] and I have family members that live in a rural community in Ghana. I'm able to transfer funds

[00:09:29] from a regular account onto what they call mobile money accounts, a MoMA account,

[00:09:35] and transfer that to the family member on the phone and they're able to access it.

[00:09:42] So just the resources are much more accessible now as a result.

[00:09:47] So from your experience what would you say are some of the key challenges that

[00:09:52] you've encountered in promoting financial inclusion for women in Africa?

[00:09:57] One of the big challenges is around perception or misconception where women for some reason

[00:10:07] are perceived to be not as good, to be riskier than men and yet the evidence shows that

[00:10:19] women actually pay back loans much better. And so the foundation invests a lot in data

[00:10:28] really working to generate the evidence that will help to show decision makers that it

[00:10:34] actually makes sense to invest in women. It makes sense from a business perspective,

[00:10:40] so it's not just being charitable and helping them out. It's actually good for financial

[00:10:46] institutions to provide women with access to finance and then it has a multiply effect in

[00:10:52] terms of the benefits to women. The other thing is really around women in leadership.

[00:11:01] Women bring invaluable perspectives and solutions to leadership roles and yet they

[00:11:06] remain underrepresented in positions of power. So in terms of the people making the decisions,

[00:11:13] if we had more women in some of these roles as well, they understand the unique

[00:11:17] perspectives of women. They also understand because they have the lived experience

[00:11:25] to be able to help the decisions that are made around women's access to finance

[00:11:32] landing a better place. And so it's around data, it's around women in leadership and

[00:11:40] decision making places. Also the challenge around assets, the age old challenge of wanting

[00:11:51] physical assets as a prelude to being able to access finance. And we know that some of the

[00:11:59] cultural norms and practices that make it challenging for women to own land and

[00:12:06] to have the typical assets that are required by traditional financial institutions

[00:12:13] is another barrier that we have encountered. And one way that we know, and this I can

[00:12:19] give an example that I actually saw in action during a trip to India was where they form women's

[00:12:26] collectives. So they come together to actually borrow financing and support each other in terms

[00:12:36] of the usage, the reporting, encouragement around paying back and so on. And this is

[00:12:42] something that the financial institutions have been comfortable with and over time the women

[00:12:47] able to graduate as they grow their businesses and build those kinds of assets,

[00:12:52] able to access financing on their own versus in a collective.

[00:12:58] As you mentioned, a challenge is the perception of women being risky in terms of receiving

[00:13:06] financial investment or support. Can you share specific initiatives or programs that the

[00:13:14] Foundation is involved in to address these challenges?

[00:13:19] Yes. So, you know, we are supporting initiatives that empower women economically,

[00:13:24] but also including digital financial tools and skills development programs.

[00:13:29] An example is the Equifarm Digital Platform in Kenya. It supports women agricultural workers

[00:13:36] to access financial products and to develop their financial literacy

[00:13:40] to build financial resilience against external shocks. One of the challenges that we've seen is

[00:13:46] despite double digit growth in mobile phone ownership across Africa, only 12% of women possess

[00:13:52] digital finance knowledge and communications technology skills. And so through that particular

[00:13:59] initiative, you know, we're supporting them not only to access the financial products,

[00:14:04] but equipping them with those skills, the financial literacy to be able to build resilience

[00:14:10] against shocks. We've also seen the widespread adoption of mobile money in the Kenya markets

[00:14:18] with MPSA. This has increased savings and enabled women to start businesses helping to reduce the

[00:14:24] number of households living in extreme poverty in Ethiopia where partnering with Ethiopia

[00:14:32] Telecom and Safari Com to really invest in women when they're able to come up with ideas

[00:14:40] that will accelerate or support women-led businesses. They're able to access financing,

[00:14:47] which is digital finance. They access it that way. They're able to distribute it

[00:14:52] through these channels to actually deliver their business. And so we do have a number

[00:14:59] of initiatives that we are supporting to just increase women's economic power across the continent.

[00:15:08] Fantastic. So if we move from the foundations initiatives or programs and look closer at

[00:15:15] your role, I was wondering if you could elaborate in terms of your role at the foundation

[00:15:20] and how that role works to facilitate the successful implementation and delivery of these

[00:15:27] initiatives. Thank you. So my role when it comes to program advocacy and communications is really

[00:15:36] to be able to take this evidence. I spoke earlier about the misconceptions around risk

[00:15:45] when it comes to women. It's to really take data that addresses things like that,

[00:15:52] but also data that shows the impacts when women are given access to finance, the kind of

[00:16:00] personal financial growth that they see and also how that then contributes when you look at the

[00:16:08] multiplier effect, the potential it has to increase a community or a country's economic

[00:16:17] growth. So it's sharing that evidence. It's also really working to demonstrate some of the

[00:16:27] policies that need to be in place to facilitate that. Sometimes change is not going to happen

[00:16:36] simply because you've shared the evidence, obviously. You may need a national policy

[00:16:42] that mandates women in South Africa, for example, where there's a government policy that

[00:16:51] basically states that 40% of government procurements will go to women-owned,

[00:16:56] women-led businesses. So there are times when we also demonstrate how policies in particular

[00:17:04] geographies have helped to accelerate. It's really, it's first equipped in the governments or our

[00:17:11] government partners or other stakeholders with the information that they need to, first of all,

[00:17:18] acknowledge and realize that this is doable, this has positive benefits, but then it's also

[00:17:24] around providing technical assistance to enable them to do it. One way to do this at scale

[00:17:32] is to have the digital public infrastructure, which private sector can then build use cases on top of

[00:17:41] whether it is around supporting women in agribusiness or women in other kinds of business

[00:17:48] initiatives, supporting them to have bank accounts to start with. So we have investments in partners

[00:17:59] that can help with that. We have partners such as Africa Nanda or Better Than Cash who are working

[00:18:07] and available to help whether it's government partners or other institutions to be able to

[00:18:14] build digital public infrastructure, looking at things like the interoperable instant payment

[00:18:21] systems, looking at the regulatory framework, because we also know that you need to have

[00:18:27] safeguards in place to engage safely online, looking at the ID system for example, the digital ID

[00:18:37] when everyone has a digital unique ID that can be linked to these digital accounts.

[00:18:44] And so these are some of the things that we have in place. We're working on the data,

[00:18:50] we're working with partners that are made available, but really providing supports around what policies

[00:18:58] need to be in place, what regulatory frameworks need to be in place, and then actually to the

[00:19:05] technical aspects. There are partners that will support around training when you actually set up

[00:19:11] these systems who's actually going to maintain it and keep it working and grow it. So on

[00:19:18] multiple levels, that is the work that I'm involved in. And obviously the financing as well,

[00:19:26] all of this requires resources. So how do we make the connections to donor partners, development

[00:19:33] partners or help governments as well? Where do you access the financing from or tapping to

[00:19:39] private sector to be able to develop and expand these initiatives?

[00:19:44] You talked about using accurate data to almost tell a story and share evidence. So

[00:19:52] since you've been involved in the social development space in Africa, how have you seen it develop?

[00:19:59] I see significant impact, right? When it comes to, and again when I'm talking about digital,

[00:20:08] when it comes to digital health, in Rwanda for example, they have an initiative there

[00:20:16] that allows people to access health digitally. So again, it makes it more accessible. They're

[00:20:23] able to triage. When you call in, you're able to speak to a qualified medical professional.

[00:20:32] It avoids the additional time required if you were traveling physically to a facility waiting in a queue

[00:20:40] for long periods of time. You're able, when you get a diagnosis or if they are recommended for tests

[00:20:47] to a lab facility that's close to you, you're able to pick up your prescription

[00:20:52] somewhere closer to you. So these progress that I see while not widespread across the

[00:21:01] continent, I see progress that can really help this continent leapfrog, so to speak, using

[00:21:11] digital infrastructure. I do feel that the need to be a more targeted focus, an intentional

[00:21:22] focus on women. The commitments are there, but translating those commitments into actions that

[00:21:31] then impact lives, there's a lot more that needs to be done. And it's really to say if as a continent

[00:21:40] we saw progress under the MDGs, we've seen some progress, but we know that we're not in a good

[00:21:48] space when it comes to the SDGs. And we can really turn that around if we're able to be very intentional

[00:21:55] about investing in women's economic power, in women's health, in women's agency. I think we will see

[00:22:06] significant progress on many aspects of the SDGs. So I've seen progress over the years since I've

[00:22:14] worked in the development space. I mean, we see many more women in leadership positions, but we all

[00:22:22] know that we still have a long way to go. Even if you look at the top leadership on the continent

[00:22:29] in terms of heads of states, again, there's a huge gap there in terms of having women

[00:22:37] in those leadership positions. We've seen significant improvements at national levels

[00:22:42] in terms of representation in parliament, but again, in many countries there's still a long way to go.

[00:22:50] We've seen it in the health space where you have so many women in the health sector,

[00:22:55] but as you get to the top echelons, you find that there are much fewer women. So significant,

[00:23:02] I think room for improvement. So what more do you think can be done to further progress

[00:23:09] the development space in Africa? It's really about action. I think we need to start doing

[00:23:21] in terms of what we've committed to, and this is where sometimes it is figuring out just what to do.

[00:23:32] And so facilitating cross learning across the continent, there are countries that have done

[00:23:38] well in one area. So the Rwanda example to say they've done this well, the work that's been done in Kenya

[00:23:48] when it comes to using digital technology to expand access to finance and to grow businesses.

[00:23:56] When we look at the work that is being done in Ethiopia now, I think it's really about

[00:24:02] buckling down and saying, this is what we want to do, but how do we do it? What are all the key

[00:24:10] elements? It's not just about okay, fine. We want to give women access to digital finance,

[00:24:18] what needs to be in place, who needs to actually do it? Do we have those people? Are there gaps?

[00:24:24] How do we build the capacity or how do we fill the gaps? What is the actual infrastructure

[00:24:29] that needs to be in place? How much will it cost? How do we get the resources to fund that?

[00:24:37] In terms of the user, you know, the user and the demand, how do we make sure that there's

[00:24:42] adequate demand that will sustain this? I think it's about doing it and it's about

[00:24:49] learning from each other. One of the areas that we're working on is around

[00:24:55] South-South collaboration as we're terming it, where countries in the global south can learn

[00:25:01] from other countries in the global south that may have similar contexts in which they're

[00:25:08] encountering these challenges but have addressed it and really use that as an avenue to get

[00:25:14] practical. That I think for me is the biggest challenge is to move from, there's still some

[00:25:22] strengthening of policies and regulations, especially because some technologies are newer,

[00:25:27] right? And there may not be existing policies that support that. So there is that element,

[00:25:34] you know, updating policies but the doing aspect, the implementation, that is where I see

[00:25:42] a need to focus more and also developing that culture of making decisions based on data

[00:25:49] because it can really inform us in a context where we have limited resources to use, make the best use

[00:25:57] of those resources because we have data that shows us what works, what is the best way to reach

[00:26:04] women for example, what are their particular needs, you know, what kind of support do they need.

[00:26:11] If we have all that evidence and we're able then to invest the limited resources we have

[00:26:17] in a targeted way to get the maximum impact we can with that, I foresee accelerated growth.

[00:26:25] As you mentioned it's about action and understanding what to do requires partnership. So how important

[00:26:32] are partnerships and local organizations for the delivery of the work that you're doing?

[00:26:39] Partnerships are critical and obviously as the Melinda Gates Foundation we work with so many

[00:26:46] partners across the continent recognizing we can't possibly have the kind of reach that we need to

[00:26:53] have to have the kind of impact that we want without those. And it's about partnerships with a range

[00:26:59] of stakeholders. So partnerships with people that have the people and organizations that have the

[00:27:07] technical knowledge, the expertise around these issues and local partners that really understand

[00:27:15] the context. Digital solutions, one of the key elements for success is that it must be contextualized.

[00:27:24] We know that issues, landscapes, there are differences you know from country to country and

[00:27:31] so being able to work with local partners that have that understanding is critical. The fact

[00:27:38] that we want to scale and in order to go to scale the natural partner is the government.

[00:27:45] So working with governments as well. So partnerships are key so even as we say action

[00:27:53] and understanding what needs to be done, that understanding sits with partners right with

[00:27:59] different stakeholders and how do we bring all those people together to really say how

[00:28:06] are we collectively going to drive this? Who is going to take which piece so that when we all come

[00:28:13] together we're able to achieve the shared objective. Thank you for that. You slightly

[00:28:19] touched on this in terms of what ways do you collaborate with African governments and

[00:28:25] policymakers to create that enabling environment for women entrepreneurs in terms of financial

[00:28:32] access and digital inclusion? So one way we work with them is really around supporting them to develop

[00:28:44] whether it's the policy supporting around coordination. So perhaps I can use an example

[00:28:51] you know here in Nigeria where I am today where the foundation provided support to develop a

[00:28:58] women's economic policy and set up structures that would facilitate oversight, coordination

[00:29:07] and drive implementation of that. And it really brought together it's not just us but other

[00:29:14] partners that are interested in women's economic empowerment to provide the collective resourcing

[00:29:21] and support that would help to do that. It has to be government led, it's a government

[00:29:27] policy but bringing together other partners. So those are some of the ways where the support we

[00:29:33] provide can be around the TA that may be required to develop a policy or it can be supports that

[00:29:41] is required to facilitate coordination so that we are working collectively, there is a duplication

[00:29:50] but complementarity and making the best use of resources, pulling in and crowding in resources

[00:29:58] to deliver. And again it's also around the cross learning you know work that we are doing

[00:30:06] in Kenya for example you know Kenya has been working on care policy. We know that one of

[00:30:15] the challenges around women's full economic participation is around providing safe affordable

[00:30:23] care for children and how do we put that in place. Just putting in place the support structures

[00:30:30] that would enable women to fully participate and it's not just doing it for women but it's also

[00:30:37] an economic sector right? Yes. They in the care economy and so looking at what has been

[00:30:43] done in Kenya and saying is that something we because you know as the foundation providing

[00:30:50] support in multiple countries and being aware of that can we connect to countries so that they

[00:30:56] can learn from each other to be able to strengthen the supports mechanisms and the policies and

[00:31:03] implementation of policies that advance women's economic power. I guess with all the work that

[00:31:09] you're doing it is about creating impact. You've touched on collecting data but I was wondering

[00:31:17] if you can expand on the ways that you measure the effectiveness and impact of your programmes

[00:31:24] specifically the ones aimed at advancing women's economic power. So when you look at

[00:31:33] our focus areas for our gender equality work women's economic power is a key pillar,

[00:31:40] women in leadership is another pillar but we also have a data pillar which is really

[00:31:48] looking to help countries collect data in a gender disaggregated way so we can actually see

[00:31:57] how implementation of policies is impacting women and to track it. There is a lot of work

[00:32:05] still to be done around that. There's also using existing reports around gender equality that

[00:32:15] allow us to track women's economic progress but I say that this is still a work in progress

[00:32:25] in terms of really trying to make this systematic in terms of how we're collecting data. So in our

[00:32:33] initiatives working to build MNE into that in a way that will allow us to compile the data

[00:32:41] that shows yes we're having that impact, we're making the progress but also as I shared earlier

[00:32:48] if we are not moving in the direction that we'd like what are the reasons you know how do we

[00:32:56] course correct or adapt based on what the data is telling us but I think it's a huge huge area

[00:33:05] when it comes to data systems across the continent and again digital technology

[00:33:12] has the potential to strengthen data collection and the quality of data that we have as well as

[00:33:19] analysis of that data and its subsequent dissemination in a timely manner to really support decision

[00:33:26] making in the work that we're doing. Yeah, as you say it's a work in progress but I was

[00:33:31] wondering do you have any specific figures that you can share that demonstrates some recent

[00:33:36] impact that you've made? There's always a challenge that we have when it comes to

[00:33:44] contribution and attribution and so you know I'd be wary of saying we've done X and this is the

[00:33:56] impact that we as the foundation have been able to have because even in the examples I gave or

[00:34:01] around the WEE policy in Nigeria, yes the foundation provided support to enable the TA, provided support

[00:34:09] around coordination but there are multiple other partners that are involved in financing.

[00:34:15] There's also other partners that provide technical support and so I'd be wary of saying we've done

[00:34:23] X and you know as the foundation this is the impact that we have been able to achieve

[00:34:32] but what I can tell you is if I look at the Kenyan example of Equiform Digital Platform like we see

[00:34:44] and we can tell stories I think it's better told in the stories in the lives of individual

[00:34:50] women where you can see a woman who was struggling to feed the family, struggling with the kids,

[00:35:01] keeping kids in school and we can see that as a result of the initiative you know they've now

[00:35:08] got healthy children, they're in school, they're working well and they have increased outputs,

[00:35:17] productivity on their farms so those kinds of impact we have definitely seen and you'll find

[00:35:25] some of those stories of change you know on the foundation's website around these women that we

[00:35:32] supported in different ways and how their lives have been transformed. So you've shared some great

[00:35:39] insights and case studies or examples of the impact, the work or the initiatives that are

[00:35:45] the foundation and its partners have delivered. So guess if we look at those impacts some of that

[00:35:52] impact creates trends so are there any trends that you're seeing in terms of the advancement of

[00:35:59] women's economic power in Africa that you're currently happy or excited about?

[00:36:05] I think the trends that I am seeing and I don't know you know it's around some of the

[00:36:16] practical policies right putting in place a policy that says 40% of procurement, government

[00:36:25] procurement should go to women owned or women led businesses is something that's very practical

[00:36:33] and also measurable right for a country to be able to say a we're succeeding or not and so yes we've

[00:36:43] seen it in one country but this is something that started at a continental level when President

[00:36:51] Ramaphosa was the African Union Chair a few years ago you know this was women's economic power

[00:37:00] was something that was a priority for him and so at the AU level I believe the figure is 30%

[00:37:08] procurement and in South Africa you know they went a step further and we're seeing that you know in

[00:37:14] other countries so I think this is something that is encouraging but we know that so when

[00:37:21] you have this sort of the policy framework and you start to see other countries adopting it

[00:37:26] which is great though we know that there's work then to be done to actually make it happen to

[00:37:32] support women owned businesses to help identify them they may not be on the radar of you know

[00:37:39] procurement officers and again back to this issue of access to finance that enables them to

[00:37:46] fulfill some of those procurement tenders so that's something that I'm seeing that is positive

[00:37:55] there is definitely more conversation I think around it even now where we've had this month

[00:38:05] International Women's Day and their conversations I see certainly much more communication around

[00:38:16] women and women leaders in a way that perhaps 10 15 20 years ago wasn't there I see more conversations

[00:38:29] around women who have significant businesses so I see a trend where it's not talking just about

[00:38:38] access to microfinance but there are women with businesses that you know are medium-sized

[00:38:46] and and are thriving and so there's more profiling I think so women's voices women's agency has improved

[00:38:57] even though and as I said in terms of a trend around getting more women in leadership I see

[00:39:05] some encouragements encouraging developments around that so I see progress around women

[00:39:15] using digital technology right using mobile phones to access information like agricultural extension

[00:39:25] when to plant you know what kind of crops to plant it's a particular time information about

[00:39:32] markets so strengthening access to markets you know all that I'm seeing more of that in a way

[00:39:41] that wasn't there before I'm seeing more women have agency over their own finance because of the

[00:39:51] digital finance yeah if we move past current trends and look at the future you know the future

[00:39:58] of Africa in the next five years where do you see or how do you see women's economic power shifting

[00:40:06] through financial access oh I see it shifting I mean it would be a game changer if you were to

[00:40:17] give women access to finance you know we have so many women owned businesses unfortunately many

[00:40:25] of them are in the formal sector it would bring them into the formal sector it would

[00:40:31] enabling them to have greater control you know autonomy over their own finances the knock on

[00:40:39] effects that we know happen in terms of family health education community development when

[00:40:45] women have access to finance it would just be a huge game changer if we could give

[00:40:53] basically half of our potential workforce the same access to finance that men have we would see

[00:41:02] accelerated development we see that they pay back you know they do pay back the finance

[00:41:08] and in many instances better than men owned businesses and given them that access to digital

[00:41:15] finance can you imagine if you bring them into the formal sector even their ability to tax right

[00:41:22] increases domestic resource mobilization formalizing their businesses so in the next five years

[00:41:31] if this consonants could significantly increase access to finance for women give them the digital

[00:41:38] financial literacy that they need I see the continent significantly on the economic fronts

[00:41:47] I agree so if we look closer to home where do you see yourself and the Berlin Melinda Gates

[00:41:52] Foundation in five years time what impactful work will you be doing on the continent

[00:41:59] you know I hope I hope that in five years time I won't still have to make the case for

[00:42:09] why it's a no brainer to invest in women to give them the resources that they need

[00:42:17] you know we have started doing more around investing in women's health there are many

[00:42:25] health issues unique to women and it's not just about their reproductive health you know we

[00:42:33] often talk about women's health in that context alone and it's broader than that so

[00:42:40] in five years time I would like to be able to be working with partners with governments

[00:42:48] to deliver effective health solutions for women I would like to start now with the innovations

[00:42:55] that are in place but really to have advanced the needle significantly on that in five years

[00:43:04] time I want to be working on and engaging with women in leadership in ways that I'm not able

[00:43:14] to now simply because they haven't been given those opportunities to occupy offices and there I say

[00:43:22] you know in five years time I want to be able to say I don't have to work like crazy because

[00:43:31] there is just so much to do in this space but because the continent has grown so much

[00:43:39] you know because the continent's development trajectory has improved so much and because

[00:43:45] others have caught on to the vision that there will be many more ratios that are actually doing the work

[00:43:53] Quote of the week as people we often have quotes mantras African proverbs or affirmations

[00:43:59] that keep us going when times are challenging or when times are good do you have one that

[00:44:04] you can share with us today yes it's a and I can't prove it been translated into English it's

[00:44:12] the right hand washes the left and the left hand washes the right when you're trying to wash your

[00:44:18] hands if you try to wash one hand by itself get the soap on it and you know run it's actually

[00:44:25] very difficult to get that hand clean but when you bring the other hand together with it

[00:44:32] and rub your hands together and use both hands you're able to get both hands clean in order to

[00:44:39] develop this continent I think we all need to work together it's not just the policymakers it's

[00:44:46] not just the governments it's not just development partners or the private sector alone that are

[00:44:54] going to do it we actually all need to come together and to support each other and if

[00:45:00] we're able to do that we will be able to achieve this dream of our prosperous Africa in which every

[00:45:08] African has agency and can develop to the full economic console thank you what a fantastic way

[00:45:15] to end today's conversation I don't think I could have ended it anymore succinctly or beautifully

[00:45:22] thank you for joining us today Rachel sharing your insights and expertise in terms of advancing

[00:45:28] women's economic empowerment in Africa through financial access and digital technologies

[00:45:35] and sharing the great work that you're doing at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation it's been

[00:45:40] an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast thank you to Tessan thank you to everyone who has

[00:45:47] listened and stayed tuned to the podcast if you've enjoyed this episode please subscribe share

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[00:45:58] download your podcast thank you and see you next week for the Unlocking Africa podcast